Category talk:Comedy

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Wikinewsies are used to zapping what we refer to as encyclopedic categories, but we may need to adopt them with guidelines to make the Wikinews Importer Bot effective at persuading Wikipedians to make the jump over to Wikinews. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Discussion moved from WN:AAA[edit]

Please add to Category:Comedy[edit]

Please add these pages to Category:Comedy :

List of archived articles with category applied[edit]

List of archived articles with category applied[edit]

Discussion previously on WN:AAA[edit]

The articles all mention "parody", "comedy", "humor", or something like that. Thanks, Wilhelm 09:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I see your point, but I'm not 100% sure "Comedy" is the appropriate category. The other issue we have to work with is that this will be poorly applied on future articles. That isn't a good argument for not having the category, but we already have enough trouble getting people to add the basic country/region and topical categories. They are often added only at the archiving stage. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think people go looking for the category, and see nothing there, and so don't add new articles to it. If they saw an established base, that might foster future developments of the category and its expansion. I'd appreciate if the above were added to the category. Wilhelm 10:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]
You're applying a rule or belief that I think comes over from Wikipedia. I'm not going to be further involved than saying I have concerns this can't be applied consistently. I genuinely wish we had enough people monitoring every published story to consistently apply categories such as this, but I can't see it happening. [Aside, if anyone wants to pick up and apply this request, go ahead]. So, I'd like to be clear I'm not objecting to this, or going to comment on the appropriateness for any of the listed articles; however, my concern is this is something you'll have to either monitor and apply yourself, or hope is clued on to by people doing archiving. I will always put getting the basic categories first, and for something like this I believe it needs us to have more people looking at stuff. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would definitely like to be able to monitor and apply this myself, but for archived articles unfortunately I cannot, due to their protection. That is why I need to request to have it done, as I am doing now. As for in the future, I will do my best to monitor it, but if articles become archived before I notice, I'd have to do the same. Wilhelm 11:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]
This does not seem to be a useful way to organize news articles. --SVTCobra 13:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think not? I see that someone else has already put something of a satirical nature into the category. Wilhelm 20:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]

The compelling purpose for creating and using the "Comedy" category at Wikinews is to use the DynamicPageList function like at Portal:Education/Wikipedia for use at Wikipedia:Portal:Comedy. Pages like this can be imported by the Wikinews Importer Bot to automatically update news stories from Wikinews at Wikipedia. This is a win-win opportunity for all projects involved. RichardF 23:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Wilhelm, it is hard to explain "why not" since it rests with the lack of a "why" should it be in the first place. It's like asking "why don't you believe in the Easter Bunny?" ... However, while I don't see the usefulness for navigating news here, I do see the mutual benefit that RichardF mentions. As such, I do not see it as detrimental to include and populate Category:Comedy. It should be a sub-cat of Category:Culture and entertainment and editors should neither add it just because they find a story to be funny nor should it become synonymous with Category:Wackynews. In conclusion, I will say that I am agreeable with this, but we ought to wait for a few more opinions. Cheers, --SVTCobra 04:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, sounds good. Also, Category:Wackynews could be added as a sub-category of Category:Comedy. Wilhelm 04:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]
I disagree there (which may explain my reservations about this category). Some may consider Police in Texas arrest man eating dead girlfriend to be "Wackynews" or otherwise off-beat-news, but there is no way that I could agree that it would fit as under Comedy. --SVTCobra 05:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I see your point, that makes sense. Wilhelm 06:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I think we should abandon the category for the concerns outlined above. I had added it to one article I was archiving since it was on my mind, but while going through the list above I see too many pitfalls in deciding which articles merit the category. --Jcart1534 15:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If a category adds utility, which this does as previously stated, it adds value. Wilhelm also has itemized several relevant rationales for specific articles to be tagged as such. RichardF 22:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a fair case has been made for this category, but within the limits of DPLs it will likely end up with an odd listing on WP until we have more people patrolling new articles for it and populating it. Could someone please draft something in the way of guidelines for its application? I'm going to apply it to a number of the above articles. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Closure/transfer of discussion[edit]

  • I've marked done/not done and am going to copy the list & discussion to the talk page for the category, Category talk:Comedy I think there should be wider discussion - as an example I would be surprised to find obituaries on Portal:Comedy over on Wikipedia, but there likely is a valid reason for that. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New discussion[edit]

What is comedy?[edit]

My gut reaction going through the above list was to in some respects apply similar criteria as I would with Category:Wackynews. For others, it was the fact that I don't think it is comedy when a comedian is announced as the presenter of an event we'd categorise under Category:Culture and entertainment; In that case Comedy only has a small, tangential, relationship with the content of the article. This - perhaps is where there is a cultural difference; what you find in a specific category in a news source isn't the same as in an encyclopedia. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I still think that the articles about Comedians, especially those with the word "Comedian" right in the title, fit perfectly for this category and should be applied. As should articles that obviously deal with forms of comedy, e.g. Satire, and Parody. See for example the sub-categories already present at w:Category:Comedy. Wilhelm 13:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I believe this discussion is inspired, at least partly, on the desire to define what should be included on the list for the Wikinews Importer Bot to import to the related Wikipedia article(s) and portal(s). From that perspective at least, it seems like we can come up with two basic approaches to define what is comedy - what gets tagged as comedy and what gets included in the DPL criteria.

At the broadest level, I would suggest Comedy be considered a complete subset of Culture and entertainment. From the perspective of coding the Bot's list, for example, that would allow using "category=Comedy" and "category=Culture and entertainment" to exclude any items that might also be in category:Wackynews (notcategory=Wackynews) that would be inappropriate.

Beyond that, it seems comedy also should draw from the "media"(?) categories of Film, Music, Television, Dance and Theatre. I don't know if any other categories are missing from that list. If DPL can do a logical "OR" search on these categories, that would make sure they were considered for possible inclusion.

The final step in this pie slicing activity would be to create the somewhat false dichotomy of "comedy - drama" from what already has been selected and draw the line somewhere. I don't know where that line is, but "I'll know it when I see it." :-)

Questions like, "Should news about comedians be included - drunk driving, obits. etc.?" can debated, but I would say yes. The basic conclusion I draw from these little ramblings is that defining comedy at Wikinews should not be that big of a deal. :-) RichardF 13:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely agree Comedy at Wikinews should not be a big deal, but there will be some talking round and so as to how the DPL should be formulated and how you decide if something falls into the category. I believe my above selection of articles for the category was quite conservative - in fact, deliberately so. A concise definition of Wikipedia's understanding of what comedy is likely needs distilled from discussion. Any regular tinkerers with that particular portal should be invited to review the above articles which I have not tagged and give concise suggestions why they would be appropriate for the category. What has to be remembered here is that we're looking for cross-project cooperation which might involve a few Wikipedians checking the Newsroom to find appropriate articles; I'm hoping it is a small step from that to actually contributing articles when they expect to see something and it isn't here.
I will stress for the Wikinewsies involved in this discussion that we need to be a little more flexible - and, radical though it may sound, the "encyclopedic category - delete!" response may need to be dropped. Wackynews and Comedy sometimes intersect - but not always. Wikipedia will be interested in the death of a clown. OTOH... If anyone suggests we need Category:Tragedy then think carefully where and how you'd apply that. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It would be a tragedy if we all didn't have a little more comedy in our lives! ;-) RichardF 13:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I can live with the choices you made, Brian. Some of the other articles just didn't seem appropriate. And thanks to Wilhelm for the lesson on what a sitcom is! Category:Tragedy? Perhaps...but maybe we should consider Category:Rubber chicken? --Jcart1534 15:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was merely pointing out that articles about a "situation comedy", should be included in the Category on "Comedy". And I agree with everything said above by RichardF (talk · contribs). Wilhelm 21:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I would submit that Cat:Comedy should be for news articles that are not of a comedic nature, but for articles about the business of comedy (such as movies and performers that strive for comedy). It should not be for articles that some people might find funny, such as US President George W. Bush caught driving without a seatbelt which can be found in Cat:Wackynews. Rather, it should be for articles which can even be solemn such as American comedian Mitch Hedberg dies on tour at 37. Of course, there will be some overlap with Wackynews, such as Satirist Stephen Colbert runs for U.S. President, but I think it will be limited. Basically I think, RichardF (see above) and I are on the same page on this. --SVTCobra 01:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the list above goes, I think that I would include most of them. NB: I did not read them, just a quick evaluation based on headlines. But there might be some missing also, like the Hedberg article. --SVTCobra 01:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the most part I agree with the above assessments. I added more of the above-listed articles to the category and searched out yet others and added them as well. I don't believe, however, that all of the above are appropriate for the category. --Jcart1534 02:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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