International Committee of the Red Cross condemns Gaza blockade

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Can we please move past the "rockets are a threat to Israel" thing? Less than 10 Israelis have been killed by rockets in the last 10 years, making them a threat perhaps comparable to bee stings and lightning strikes, and far less dangerous than, say, defective consumer products or car crashes, which no one in Israel seems too worried about. By comparison, many thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese have been killed (in their own lands and in many cases their own homes) by invading IDF forces.

And, as we have seen, even when Palestinians fire *no* rockets, the Israeli government has no compunction about invading neighboring lands and killing people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

The whole rocket issue is yet another smokescreen. Please stop parroting it.

199.106.103.248 (talk)18:27, 15 June 2010

So...ten innocent Israelis don't matter? At least when IDF forces kill civilians it is collateral damage, they are fairly precise, and try to target actual threats to Israel, as opposed to Israel's enemies, which want them to just die, men, women, children, all civilians, just because they are Israeli. They launch rockets aimlessly into Israel, with the sole intent of killing civilians. See the difference? One is a response to aggression with the intent of ending it, whereas the other is an act of aggression committed solely for ideological reasons with the intent of killing civilians. There haven't been very many rockets since we invaded Gaza, so I guess it worked, didn't it. Maybe the only reason for that is because of the blockade, which prevents weapons and their components from being smuggled in.

The whole concept of "civilians" and "combatants" becomes very clouded when a militant can throw down his weapons and claim to be a civilian the next day, they are not wearing uniforms, and every estimate of civilian casualties assumes a lot of things when there is simply no basis for making that claim. The Battle of Mogadishu was a similar instance of confusion between civilians and combatants. A civilian becomes a combatant as soon as he picks up a weapon, but long before that he was willing to kill. At least IDF forces have enough dignity to wear their country's colors and fight to protect their country. Can terrorists and non-aligned combatants say the same?

For comparison, consider what would happen if the US had a blockade under similar circumstances. We would 1) make a command for the vessel to turn back 2) fire a warning shot 3) sink the ship. Israel attempted to commandeer the vessels, and they were stabbed, beaten, and kidnapped before they use lethal force. Furthermore, the stories were blown out of proportion, trying to make Israel seem like the bad guys. Weapons were cropped out of pictures to make the flotilla seem peaceful, but we all know what was really happening, and it only further emphasizes the importance of the blockade in preventing the smuggling of weapons and weapon components. Israel is continually criticized for their heavy-handed tactics, and in my opinion, they have every right to use them. I can say that anyone would do the same. Try being as peaceful, calm, and reluctant to use lethal force when every bordering country wants you dead because you are Jewish. Israel should never have to defend the action of defending itself, and I hope that anyone who seeks to bring violence upon them learns the hard way not to mess with the IDF. If you don't know what i'm talking about, read up on the Six-day war.

216.165.55.18 (talk)17:52, 16 June 2010

No not anyone would have done the same. If there is the possibility of a confrontation with violent people armed with bats, wrenches and similar you send people who can overcome them without resorting to lethal forces. By your reasoning every time there is a riot the answer is to shot the people involved. Lucky in the US, Europe and the rest of the civilised world this doesn't happen. On the other hand the police or the army shooting protestors is quite common in a lot of regimes i'm sure you despise. Just a question for you: if something similar was done by Iran or North Korea would you defend them saying they have a right to kill rioters?

93.39.35.252 (talk)18:59, 16 June 2010

Of course ten Israeli deaths matter just as ten Palestinian deaths matter. The problem with brutal sanctioning is that you don't only punish the specific people/groups that are responsible - in fact you primarily punish innocent people. The people who have established this sanctioning are well aware more that many innocent people will be killed directly and many indirectly because of this sanctioning. It would not take much knowledge and experience to know fairly surely that your policies will bring death to innocent people in numbers that are far from proportional - numbers which do not seem well justified even in the name of protection of innocent Israeli citizens from terrorist violence.

It would be convenient to just stand on principle and hold evil enemy governments responsible for their own citizens and blame them for the fate of their innocent populations when they become "collateral damage" - but standing on philosophical abstraction is not a position that justifies so much death. The same situation applied to Iraq BEFORE the second Iraq war - we can blame Saddam all we like but U.S. sanctions killed thousands of innocent Iraqis long before any occupational force returned - do we have the right to put the lives of all those innocent people in the hands of someone like Saddam just so we can prove to him our own strength? What good will holding him responsible do for them? These kinds of tactics show weakness - not strength. No innocent deaths should be taken lightly and potential for future hazard to innocent life is not an automatic justification for going on the offensive and killing more Palestinian citizens - especially in completely unproportional numbers.

99.16.50.133 (talk)19:49, 16 June 2010
 

Israel sent their very best special forces, not their worst, because they knew these experienced soldiers would only resort to lethal force in order to protect their own lives. It was not a riot, it was an organized attempt to evade an established blockade and bring supplies, including weapons, into Gaza. The occupants of the ship had prepared weapons beforehand specifically for this violent purpose. Furthermore, they refused to allow Israel to inspect the supplies before they were transferred by established land routes into Gaza. Why? I can't think of any good reasons, only bad ones, which further justify their commandeering of the vessels. There was a peaceful solution to that confrontation, but they chose the violent route.

216.165.55.18 (talk)05:48, 17 June 2010

And if you ignore the facts its easy to side with the protesters, such as omitting knives from your list of weapons that they had to make them seem less threatening, just an obvious deception on your part. What about the fact that a few soldiers were kidnapped, and one thrown to a lower deck? The people on board those ships, at least a portion of them, were planning to kill the Israeli soldiers from the start. They attempted to overwhelm the IDF, and the IDF responded by using lethal force, if that's not how you see that one scenario you have your facts wrong.

216.165.55.18 (talk)05:53, 17 June 2010

and here's a disproportionate number for you: SIX MILLION, that's how many Jews were killed last time they were persecuted and nobody gave a shit. If you are going to blame Israel for defending themselves against those same anti-semitic ideologies of the past being used Israel's enemies now, then you clearly have some sort of deep-seated anti-semitism yourself. The worst part is, you are thinking to yourself "Yeah anyone can pull the holocaust card." That's right, I am. We made a promise, never again will the Jewish people be persecuted and murdered for being Jewish. If we are willing to fight tooth and nail with these degenerates, and if the local populations support them and refuse to help us weed them out, then yes, innocent people are going to get killed in the crossfire. Everyone in the world, including the UN, is blaming Israel for the action of defending themselves. I see this all as an excuse for people to just express their own latent anti-semitism, and I won't stand for it.

216.165.55.18 (talk)06:00, 17 June 2010

Yeah sure, anyone who say that even Israel can do wrongs at times is a nazi in disguise. I can't believe that people that on one hand rightly condemn Hamas and similar organization of hate for their actions and their ideology on the other write that "their side" has the right to kill innocents and bystanders. You wonder why "Everyone in the world, including the UN, is blaming Israel"? That's because some parts of the Israel society reason like you, and it's tragically similar to how terrorists think.

93.39.42.119 (talk)20:01, 17 June 2010

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said we have a right to kill civilians. I did however say that innocent people will get killed in the crossfire if they continue to support the actions of terrorists and radicals, because that's how war works, its a sad reality and there are alternatives, but as for now, they are making the choice to side with people openly hostile to Israel, instead of assisting Israel peacefully in the removal of those combatants. The IDF doesn't target civilians, Hamas cannot say the same.

216.165.55.18 (talk)00:25, 18 June 2010

So all palestinians are collectively guilty by association and they can blame only themself if they get killed. Good luck convincing the rest of the world. And don't get me wrong, the palestinians wrongs are a mile long but saying they're the only one responsible for this mess while Israel would just love to live in peace and it's completely innocent is really naive or just plain badfaith.

95.244.229.42 (talk)15:56, 19 June 2010

I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but don't put words in my mouth, that's just immature. You take what I write, and then pretend to be quoting me with an extreme viewpoint. I said innocent people will get killed in the crossfire if they are supporting hostile combatants. I did not say "all Palestinians" at any point in my post. I do believe however that a good potion of them are not taking the necessary steps to prevent this violence. Israel is a state that has learned to combat violence with greater violence, and collateral damage is a sad fact of war.

People are so quick to ignore history and jump on the bandwagon when the world starts to criticize Israel. It sure sounds convincing to call the blockade collective punishment, but it serves a specific purpose, to prevent more weapons from entering Gaza. The decrease in rocket attacks clearly demonstrates its effectiveness (btw there are 28 deaths attributed to rocket attacks, the above statistic of 10 is just an out-of-the-ass number). An inconvenient side-effect is that much of the unregulated supply routes for other goods have also been blocked. Israel is taking the extreme action, but only because militant groups were exploiting the lack of regulation before.

It was not long ago that Israeli's were living in the west bank and gaza, but it was too dangerous, and we had to pull out. That is the true cause of all of this, the fact that there is a violent group of people living in these areas, partially supported by the civilian population. If those people were instead working to remove these violent people, then this whole problem would be over much faster. I cannot imagine any response that Israel could use to have the same effect. Lifting the blockade would allow needed supplies into Gaza, but at the same time, it is an absolute certainty that weapons and possibly more militants will also exploit this to make the area more dangerous once again, and there will be another thing like Operation Cast Lead to stop the problem.

Please ignore the facts some more and then try to quote me, but instead just voice an extreme viewpoint and attribute it to me. It only strengthens my point, that people are willing to ignore facts and history when it is convenient to the majority opinion.

216.165.55.18 (talk)08:59, 21 June 2010

The problem is that responding to violence with even greater violence is what is isolating Israel from the rest of the world. I fear for the future of Israel because the current leadership seems to not be able to do anything else than responding to violence with even greater violence and it doesn't seem to have a single idea on how to make the peace any nearer. And about facts: there are 300000 colonist living in the west bank and they represent one of the greatest hurdle Israel will have to surpass for getting peace. You can blame the palestinians for the evacuation of 7000-8000 settlers from gaza but the point is that those people shouldn't have been allowed to settle in the occupied areas. I think that while the six days war was one of Israel greatest success it's aftermath was screwed up. Instead of keeping the occupied territories just under military control and using them has bargain chip for recognition and peace accord (sinai style) Israel has let colonies grow to a point where it's pratically impossible to dismantle them. And this send the worst possible message to Palestinians. You say that palestinians could do a lot to stifle the most extreme organizations but what for? To their eyes Israel is still slowly evicting them and taking a small piece of land after another no matter if they're peaceful or aggressive. If they aren't shown any alternative to this how you can hope the situation will change? And while you can personally not believe that all palestinians are guilty a lot of people in power behave has if they are.

93.39.58.249 (talk)23:51, 21 June 2010
 

@ 216.165.55.18,,another point of view, can you imadgine when we witnessed the Israelies (not jews) slaughter burning babies with incendury bombs how we felt towards the Israelies? call yourselves interlectuals? you might be quiet elequant here but where it matters (infront of the rest of the world)you are nothing but filth, all you seemed to learn in history is what hitler did to your people and multiply the suffering of others many times over.

things like this flotilla and many more "incidents" prove you are less than vermin. you say "anti-sematism" no (and no other race has a word for hating its own race, strange isint it? only the poor downtrodden israelie uses it, i wonder why?) dont involve ALL the jews in your attrocitities, the orthadox jews dont want to get involved in your carnage but are made to suffer for what you do. you are hated more and more in the world this is israels legacey, you braught it on your self, there are plenty whom would mediate, i love the & jew hate the israelie. (F.Y.I. i am white uk citizen natural born here 48 years old.)
109.153.64.123 (talk)21:15, 16 December 2010
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Jews aren't innocent lol, israeli forces are killing more innocent people right now. Hitler proved it! Woot hitler is awesome. anyway this war between the stupid muslims and jews is ridiculous! this is like Crusade lol so why don't you all die in hell like you already will when you die lol. Fuck Israel and Palestine.

67.230.207.62 (talk)15:38, 25 June 2010