Talk:Fatal police helicopter crash in Slovakia due to technical failure: preliminary Interior Ministry finding

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Preliminary thoughts[edit]

@DavidStefanSK: A few thoughts, looking at the developing article.

  • The lede should say when the focal event happened. The focal event is the statement described in the first sentence. On what day did that happen?
  • The Sources section should be listed in reverse chronological order; that is, starting with the most recently published, and going back in time to end with the least recently published.
  • We'll need to work a bit at the headline, as the conclusion of the Interior Ministry should be presented as a claim rather than a fact.

--Pi zero (talk) 01:47, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for feedback, I tried to incorporate basic info into first paragraph. I sticked with "last week" in the first sentence, although May 10 can be moved there (I left it in last one because including time into first sentence would be, I guess, too "heavy" on details). Last sentence informs when exactly it occured, where (Air Force base near Prešov, third largest "city" in Slovakia) and that it resulted in two fatalities and two serious injuries. Second paragraph sums up details that we know about accident, which is not much.
Translations from most important parts of Slovak sources:
  • The initial report on the incident – Polícia Slovenskej republiky (official Slovak Police Force Facebook account) Facebook status from May 10 (3:04 PM CEST): "K zrúteniu došlo vo výške 100 metrov a 200 metrov od miesta vzletu." – "The crash occured at a height of 100 metres"; 3:30 PM update: "Udalosť sa stala pred 14:30" – "The incident happened prior to 2:30 PM"; 3:35 PM update: "Podľa prvých správ bol pád špirálovitý.“ – “According to first reports the fall was spiral." Initial reports and reactions are summed up in Teraz.sk live overview from May 10, mostly just as embedded statuses, videos etc.
  • Teraz.sk: "Za pádom policajného vrtuľníka v Prešove nemá byť chyba pilota, išlo o technickú poruchu. Také sú výsledky prvého skúmania čiernych skriniek v Prahe, informoval TASR hovorca ministerstva vnútra Petar Lazarov." – "Police helicopter crash in Prešov was not caused by pilot's error but technical failure. These are results of the first analysis of black boxes in Prague, Ministry of Interior spokesperson Petar Lazarov informed TASR." Lazarov said "Príčiny nehody chce rezort ďalej a podrobne skúmať, čierne skrinky a časti stroja pôjdu preto do Spojených štátov amerických" – "The Ministry wants to further investigate causes of the accident; black boxes and remains of the helicopter will therefore be send to the United States of America"
  • Info that it was during roping exercise (most reports say just an exercise) is from Pravda (May 19): "V čase, keď došlo k pádu, záchranári nacvičovali zlaňovanie pomocou palubného navijaka. Boli asi v stometrovej výške." – "At the moment of the crash rescuers were carrying out roping exercise using helicopter's reel."
  • Plus Jeden Deň: "Dôvodom minulotýždňového pádu policajného vrtuľníka bol podľa našich informácií výpadok oboch jeho motorov naraz. Potvrdil nám to zdroj z Prahy, kde doteraz skúmali čiernu skrinku." – "Cause of last week's police helicopter crash was according to our information failure of both rotors at the same time. It was confirmed by a source from Prague, where black box was analysed."
  • Info about funeral is from Teraz.sk: "Posledná rozlúčka s nimi sa konala v utorok 16. mája." "The last farewell took place on Tuesday May 16." Last farewell being an euphemism for funeral.
  • Info about injuries of two pilots is from Pravda (May 10): "Ako informovala hovorkyňa Fakultnej nemocnice s poliklinikou v Prešove Renáta Cenková, jeden z nich [...] „Je stabilizovaný, pri vedomí, [...] Utrpel zlomeninu pravej stehennej kosti, zlomeniny pravých rebier ako aj tvárových kostí vpravo" – "As Ján Adam Reiman Teaching Hospital with Polyclinic in Prešov spokesperson Renáta Cenková told us, one of them [...] "Is stablized, conscious, [...] Suffered right femoral fracture, right rib and facial bone (on the right) fracture"
  • Info that one of them is still in serious condition is from Teraz.sk informed on May 19 that Cenková said "Druhý pacient je naďalej na oddelení anestéziológie a intenzívnej medicíny, [...] jeho zdravotný stav je naďalej vážny" – "Second patient is still at the Department of Anesthesiology and Intensive Medicine, [...] his condition is still serious".
  • Paragraph about helicopter, when it was purchased etc. has English sources.
  • Bell Helicopter's reaction is from Aktuality.sk: "Všetci v Bell Helicopter sme veľmi zarmútení správou o havárii slovenského policajného vrtuľníka Bell BL429. Všetky naše myšlienky teraz smerujú k tým, ktorí boli na palube vrtuľníka, rovnako ako k ich rodinám a priateľom. [...] Spoločnosť Bell Helicopter je pripravená poskytnúť slovenským úradom akúkoľvek pomoc s vyšetrovaním." – "We all in Bell Helicopter are deeply saddened by report about Slovak police helicopter crash Bell BL429. Our thoughts are with those who were aboard the helicopter as well as with their families and friends. [...] The company Bell Helicopter is ready to provide to Slovak officials any help with the investigation." Articles puts it as if it was official press release from Bell Helicopter, but I wasn't able to find it on their website.
  • National Council's minute of silence is mentioned in The Slovak Spectator. I included also info about President's and PM's condolences (two biggest fishes from the government) and about Mayor as the representative of local government. Info about mayor is from Korzár "K udalostiam, ktoré v stredu otriasli Prešovom, urobili vyhlásenie aj primátorka Prešova Andrea Turčanová s členmi Mestskej rady v Prešove." – "Mayor of Prešov Andrea Turčanová together with other members of the City Council in Prešov made a public statement in regards to the incident that shocked Prešov on Wednesday".--DavidStefanSK (talk) 02:55, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When it comes to headline, maybe Fatal police helicopter crash in Slovakia caused by technical failure, says Interior Ministry? Or should it be more clear in headline that it is preliminary conclusion?--DavidStefanSK (talk) 03:08, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's an improvement. I've made that change, and will consider whether the preliminary-ness needs highlighting in the headline. --Pi zero (talk) 11:06, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
...and I've tried to include the preliminary aspect. --Pi zero (talk) 11:27, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Review of revision 4315905 [Passed][edit]

Revision 4315905 of this article has been reviewed by Pi zero (talk · contribs) and has passed its review at 16:31, 21 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]

Comments by reviewer:

  • Some points removed because I didn't succeed in verifying them.
  • The translation help and the embedded comments were immensely helpful; thankyou. Working with non-English sources (in a language the reviewer doesn't know, though there are certainly languages more disparate from English) is very difficult, though it can also be quite rewarding in providing material not widely available in the English-language news media; help like this is invaluable and much appreciated.

The reviewed revision should automatically have been edited by removing {{Review}} and adding {{Publish}} at the bottom, and the edit sighted; if this did not happen, it may be done manually by a reviewer.

Revision 4315905 of this article has been reviewed by Pi zero (talk · contribs) and has passed its review at 16:31, 21 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]

Comments by reviewer:

  • Some points removed because I didn't succeed in verifying them.
  • The translation help and the embedded comments were immensely helpful; thankyou. Working with non-English sources (in a language the reviewer doesn't know, though there are certainly languages more disparate from English) is very difficult, though it can also be quite rewarding in providing material not widely available in the English-language news media; help like this is invaluable and much appreciated.
The reviewed revision should automatically have been edited by removing {{Review}} and adding {{Publish}} at the bottom, and the edit sighted; if this did not happen, it may be done manually by a reviewer.

@Pi zero:Thank you a lot for review and commentary, must have been a lot of work to review articles with sources in Slovak. I found picture of that helicopter on Commons and included it in article; I included also Slovak translation for Lieutenant Colonel rank. I looked into points you removed because of missing sources. It's my mistake, I didn't provide notes for them. Not these parts are vital for the article, but anyways, here are notes:

  • who died on site and who in the hospital: Pravda article: "Okresného riaditeľa Hasičského a záchranného zboru v Prešove letecky previezli do nemocnice v Košiciach. Ani okamžitá operácia a takmer hodinový boj o jeho život nepomohol." Prešov Fire and Rescue Corps district commander was transported to a hospital in Košice. However neither immidiate operation nor almost hour-long fight for life could help him. Lieutenant Colonel Lacko was the district commander (well, official title is district director, but papers tend mess up titles) as stated in Interior Ministry press release: "Pplk. Mgr. Radoslav Lacko [...] až do roku 2015, kedy bol prezidentom HaZZ menovaný do funkcie riaditeľa Okresného riaditeľstvo HaZZ v Prešove" "Lt. Col. Radoslav Lacko, M.A. [...] to year 2015 when FRC [HaZZ is abbreviation for Fire and Rescue Corps] appointed him director of the District Branch of the FRC in Prešov".
  • Bell 429 most advance heli in Interior Ministry fleet: except from Wikipedia entry (Slovak Government Flying Service) and one forum I couldn't find full current list of planes. But in November 2011 ministry press release about 50th anniversary of Aviation Department mentioned only four Mi-171s helicopters ("Štyri vrtuľníky Mi-171"). An I found Slovak article on Gonzo Aviation.com that sums it up quite well: "Nový Bell je nielen špičkový vrtuľník, ale prináša súčasne aj obrovské zmeny do práce technikov a mechanikov Letky Ministerstva vnútra SR, ktorí sa budú starať o jeho prevádzku. Obrazne povedané, bude to prechod z ruských papierových manuálov na online digitálnu podporu Bell Helicopter" "New Bell is not only state-of-the-art helicopter, but also brings huge changes to work of technicians and mechanics of the Ministry of Interior of the Slovak Republic Wing, who will take care of its maintenance. Figuratively, it will be transition from Russian paper manuals to online digital support of Bell Helicopter"
  • second Bell 429 commissioned in December 2015: found it on AeroBoek.nl (table at the bottom of webpage)
  • second Bell 429 crash in Slovakia: there is list of all helicopter crashes at the bottom of News Agency of the Slovak Republic live article (my bad I didn't include it in bracket and notes) "Chronológia havárií vrtuľníkov na území SR" "Chronology of helicopter crashes on the territory of the Slovak Republic". Bell 429 GlobalRanger has been produced since 2007, so I will include here only crashes since 2007:
    • July 3, 2008 – helicopter Mil Mi-17 (in article "vrtuľník ruskej výroby M 17") crashed during helicopter logging in Sopotnická valley in Low Tatras near Brusno, two crewmembers died, one survived
    • September 23, 2010 – helicopter Eurocopter AS 355N Ecureuil 2 (in article only registration "OM-IKM", here is info about helicopter with that registration) crashed (hard-landed) near Ružín reservoir on the eastern Slovakia, no injuries
    • March 3, 2013 – small tour helicopter fell into Váh river near Šintava, one passenger died, other two and pilot were rescued with injuries – it is not clear what made it is, although it looks (see Fire and Rescue Corps press release) distinct from Bell 429 (smaller and doors are distinctively different than Bell's)
    • April 21, 2013 – two-seat helicopter (in article "Dvojmiestny vrtuľník") crashed near Aero club airport in Trnava, one person died, other suffered serious injuries – no info on helicopter made, but it's obviously not Bell 429
    • October 11, 2014 – small helicopter Heli-Sport CH-7 (in article "Ch-7") crashed on private heliport near Liptovský Mikuláš, one injured
    • July 17, 2015 – ATE rescue helicopter AgustaWestland A109K2 (helicopter made not in the article, can be found e.g. in ATE press release or Aviation and Maritime Investigation Bureau final report) fell into Hornád river in Slovenský raj, all four crewmembers died
    • July 28, 2015 – Air Force helicopter crashed near Hradisko in Prešov District, all three crewmembers injured – made not stated, but Slovak Air Force does not use Bell 429 yet (only Mil Mi-2s, Mil Mi-17s and Sikorsky UH-60 BlackHawks, formerly also Mil Mi-24s, they ordered nine Bell 429s this year in April)
    • September 7, 2016 – ATE rescue helicopter Bell 429 (in article)--DavidStefanSK (talk) 21:43, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bell Helicopter statement, May 21[edit]

@DavidStefanSK: Please find below the official Bell Helicopter statement from 21 May 2017: We are extremely saddened by the two accidents within the past year in Slovakia involving Bell 429s, and our heartfelt thoughts continue to go out to those onboard the aircraft as well as their families and friends. Bell Helicopter and Pratt & Whitney continue to assist the Slovakian authorities with the accident investigations, both of which are ongoing. Since neither investigation is complete, we cannot speculate on the cause of either accident, although we currently have no reason to believe the two are related.

Contrary to reports in the media, it is not possible to rule in or out any cause of the accident at this stage of the investigation. Aircraft accident investigations are complex and require consideration of multiple factors. A thorough and impartial investigation typically takes several months to complete and individual data points or information cannot be considered or discussed in isolation. All parties involved should refrain from inappropriate public speculation until the technical experts conclude their work.

If a critical safety or airworthiness concern were to arise during the course of an investigation, we would quickly notify owners and operators of the appropriate course of action. Safety is a top priority.

With 285 operating worldwide, the Bell 429 meets or exceeds today's airworthiness requirements. The Bell 429 is powered by the PW200 Pratt & Whitney engine – of which there are more than 3,500 operating in 80 countries around the world with more than 10 million hours of flight time. The PW200 also powers the Leonardo A109E and A109, Airbus EC 135, Kazan Helicopters Ansat and MD Helicopters MD Explorer. With these facts in mind, Bell Helicopter continues to have tremendous confidence in the Bell 429. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.165.216.253 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 22 May 2017

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