Talk:Kerala: Cleric disappointed over school award organisers inviting girl student on the stage

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Review of revision 4676983 [Not ready][edit]

Requesting help in edit by substantial trimming down to publish[edit]

Greetings @ User:JJLiu112,

Though I am used to Wikipedia, it is my first time at Wikinews. Certainly you are better trained in media so I will have good learning experience if you only edit and help me out. As much help pages I read one needs to be in time limit with less time to understand and deliberate; So what I suggest is to fast trim /cut down complicated portions of the story, if 101 words remain and rest is deleted as editorial policy is okay to me, and you can do that for me. You can take decision on better headline too.

Since Wikinews audience would be international so I attempted to give as much background of feminist issues in relation to access to public spaces in South Asia as possible. I attempted to cover all opinions sides of the news story as were available and attempted avoiding stereotyping in my own way, may be I am not perfect but there is no intention on my part to be divisive or something. Language may be charged with feminist point of view but all that is selected from other media sources I have taken care of only not breaching copyright issues. The rest of the language and tone comes from media as is. This is not to say it can not be or should not be improved as per Wikinews standard but since we get less time to understand and minute details being first time here. If you edit even by trimming/ deleting down substantially, I will get new perspective on how to write on this platform and may be learn more.

Being a feminist I have simple intention of discrimination against girl school students gets covered. Being feminist it is tough to imagine a school boy is allowed to come over school stage and accept accolades but a school girl is not. The discrimination comes in many forms and may not be unique to Indian state of Kerala or any community but such micro–aggression / discrimination rarely make it to news or books, though social media made it much easier. With a single instance reported by media encyclopedic article would be difficult so I wish that being covered on this sister project 'wiki news', and hence requesting your valuable help.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 02:49, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I myself trimmed the article substantially, reviewer can trim and change further as needed.
Thanks Bookku (talk) 05:42, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, Wikinews differs significantly from Wikipedia, and I strongly urge the author to read past publications for what is and is not considered an appropriate standard for inclusion. Furthermore, self-held political opinions or activist intent cannot detract from the strict 'neutral point of view' attitude taken toward every subject. We cannot compromise ethos—regard the following:
"innocent expectation of appreciation"
"berating their school award organisers"
"strict Islamic dress code"
Recognise how these extracts contain subjective, divisive language. Who decides what is a 'strict' dress code? How could one determine 'innocence', or classify what is 'berating' versus 'criticising'? A convicted debate could favour either point.
Further, articles do not have 'endnotes'. And 'sources' is not to insert all the media coverage you can find, but for further reading on what was used in the article's drafting. Please regard past articles, Wikinews:Style Guide and Wikinews:Write an article for significant guidance in this respect.
I especially behold the expressed sentiment reviewers should take significant editorial action—an article should be submitted only when it is truly fit for publication. Endeavour to rectify concerns, or enquire further. JJLiu112 (talk) 06:08, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Among above concerns specifically stated ones are taken care of by updating news article and also added cleric's and his orgnisations point of view as news became available hopefully that balances the News story further.
Bookku (talk) 10:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Who decides what is a 'strict' dress code?

~ JJLiu112 No we have removed word 'strict' But answer who decides seems to be clear enough

“Islam does not allow women to mingle with men. There should be a curtain between women and men…women can enjoy everything, watch everything from beyond that curtain,’’ said Musaliyar, who is a senior functionary of Samastha Kerala Sunni Vidyabhyasa Board, which regulates madrasa education in Kerala. Date :14 th May 2022

Ref: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/kerala/kerala-muslim-cleric-class-x-girl-support-7917078/

".. All the institutions have common text books, uniform, public examinations .. " https://samastha.in/about-us.php

Bookku (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review of revision 4677072 [Not ready][edit]

Additional RS refs[edit]

Bookku (talk) 03:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review of revision 4677326 [Not ready][edit]

17th May[edit]

Greetings @ @LivelyRatification:

  • Brief: I make a request here again is, if news has news value and is not stale then simply cut it down to 101 words with wording as per Wikinews culture as reviewer deems fit and let it get published.
    • Details

I am not writing following note just for sake of this article. When a news is already on google news and other RSS feeds having that again on Wikinews is not at least of my priority interest. Having news in archives is also not very attractive proposition as author. Why I wrote here is having soft corner for this project being a Wiki, and I can combine and present from other reliable news sources as I wish while maintaining appearance of neutrality i.e, covering and balancing with all significant views.

Let me share my limitations frankly

1) Still being novice @ Wikinews
2) Having encyclopedic influence on writing style being exposed to en WP writing.
3) Not native English and needs copy edit / grammar support.
4.1) One limitation comes from vocabulary sentence changes made with an intention to avoid copy right issues . This too adds in linguistic mistakes or non perfect words.
4.2) Many times vocabulary and tone comes because of indirect influence of source itself.
4.3) Again news writer would be in great hurry of finishing article so may not be able to put in thoughts thoroughly each aspect of the story content each time.
5) Though I do make a point to cover all significant point of views, as others do have biases I do have biases pertaining to feminist and progressive on rights issues. Even my own good understanding and respect towards cultural relativism do not change my biases when it comes to feminist and progressive on rights issues.

Coming over limitations for any one including myself is easier said than done. As others can not read stale articles it's difficult for new users like me to read old news articles and benefit. What I can do is participate / collaborate in other new news articles of my interest which I have started doing.

  • Reviewer response Change specific words is specific suggestion easy to understand; the response, 'Study help pages and old articles', helps but vague without clarity about what are specific mistakes? and time consuming for both sides.

What I requested earlier reviewer and same request earnestly I make here again is if news has news value and is not stale then simply cut it down to 101 words with wording as per Wikinews culture as reviewer deems fit and let it get published.

If any user like me wants to hold on with any part of cut down content I will prefer to add my own supplement on the opinion page. Anyways opinion pages are not likely to be used in big ways so I will be proposing to call them supplement and opinion page so other people will write opinions after supplement if any. On supplement page we can make mention of disclaimer as "non reviewed supplement and authors own opinions are personal and Wikimedia project and foundation does hold any responsibility towards them.

That is how I think and would like to hear valuable inputs from you.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 10:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm not sure what you mean. Staleness isn't effected by the length of the article, so cutting it down to 101 words won't do anything, it'll just make it a shorter stale article. Unless original reporting is involved, the general rule is that articles which address an event that happened more than 2-3 days ago are stale, and can't be published. While the facts of the article might be true, they are no longer newsworthy according to Wikinews policy.
As an example, if a bank is robbed on Monday, and I write an article on it on Tuesday, it couldn't be published after Wednesday, because the main story of the article -- the bank robbery -- would be stale under Wikinews policy. But if, say, the bank robber is caught on Thursday, an article about the bank robber being caught could be caught on Thursday, with information about the initial Monday bank robbery, even though the Monday robbery on its own would be stale.
Additionally, when writing articles, do not add any of your own opinions to the article -- they are not relevant. What is relevant is the facts of the story. Wikinews does not allow opinion pieces to be published. We follow the neutral point of view policy, meaning that articles should not be written with bias, and should represent each sides fairly. It is difficult to write completely without bias, of course, but it should always be something that you are aware of and try to avoid. LivelyRatification (talk) 11:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]


@LivelyRatification: I hope it is ok to ping you again for clarity from my side. Let me put it differently.

  • In Brief At outset consider new user news articles like ' Request an article ' give quick fix and publish rather than letting those getting stale.
  • Detail

1) Even before writing, I had read help pages and 3 day criteria of staleness was perfectly noted by me and was and is fully agreeable to that criteria without doubt,

2) @ proposal board some one has suggested diluting staleness criteria, what I am suggesting a lateral thinking solution.

Out of the criteria 'Copyright', Verifiability, NPOV, Style, Newsworthiness
At least like me who have reasonable article writing experience on WP are generally aware of 'Copyright', Verifiability, NPOV issues, we are likely to be well read in our area of interest plus we are usually used to cover news sources as encyclopedic sources. When we come main problem before reviewer are news worthyness before it gets stale and second is style.
If reviewer gets stuck on style news is likely to get stale.
On the other hand, you have ' Request an article ' , out of 10 proposals in 2021, though promptly answered no request could succeed to become an article.
What I am suggesting is consider my news article like ' Request an article ' take 2 sources. And you do not need to write 100 words also because those are provided by me are just missing in style and grammar. And finish it up by publishing in your own way.
In 2021 you have answered some one in Request an article about Canadian election that you do not have expertise in the topic suppose in that place a experienced Wikipedian is coming with an article issue of expertise on topic does not arise and reviewer has some thing to work on in hand.
In any news orgnisation if a journalist is new, news article is not perfect but news is news worthy, what happens? Sub editor first accepts it as news edits as he want and publishes and later explains new reporter what need to be changed in the style for their agency. Here what is happening is opposite reviewers are sticking on style, forget Wikipedian does not know style use his sources get 100 or so words write in your own style considering it to be a Request an article.
Wikipedian will automatically will understand better when his own content his handled and demonstrated how it can reach as news.
Here what happened with me for the same day of 12 May I wanted to cover one more news of one Nigerian girl student being lynched and burned alive by mob due to alleged blasphemy. But I got discouraged.
I have explained my list of limitation many other users would have similar or different limitations. Instead of experienced reviewers taking responsibility of fixing style issues, prioritizing news worthiness by considering Request an article is getting stuck in style. Delete and forget my rest of 9 paragraphs select one news worthy like style it only for 100 words.
IMHO I think as above.
Thanks for your patience and assistance and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 15:25, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bookku: Articles created via WN:Requested articles are no different to articles created regularly. They have the same requirements as any other Wikinews article. The only thing that requesting an article does is essentially ask someone else to make an article, so of course there's no requirement to write 100 words, because you're not writing the article.
If a reviewer were to liberally edit your article to fix the style themselves, as you're suggesting, then they would no longer be able to review the article themselves, because they would be considered a contributor, and obviously you can't review articles you helped write.
For that reason, while I have occasionally seen reviewers make big edits to articles to help fix them, it doesn't happen often, because reviewers don't want to step in and make the changes themselves, because then they can't review the article.
I understand your issue here and I do sympathise with it. If you want to help learn the style, I would suggest looking at other published articles, and attempting to submit another article for review when you feel you're ready. Let me be clear -- without refocusing this story on any updates, it will not be published, because it is stale. But if you find another event or thing you'd like to write about, feel free to attempt to write an article on it. LivelyRatification (talk) 20:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]