Talk:University suspends lecturer accused of racism
"He spoke at the American Renaissance conference in 2000. He criticised the Stephen Lawrence enquiry and the Macpherson report which followed it." - As a basic reader, I don't know what these are.... Should they either be explained further, or can they be wikilinked? Perhaps the conference could be linked to the AR article? Lyellin 18:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, I had removed the publish tag due to the lack of explanation in the article.. I just saw it readded, and would like to comment that the aricle still has all the same issues that it used to. I'm leaving now, but I'll come back later and probably put it back to developing unless its improved. Lyellin 21:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I have taken up your concerns and provided wikilinks to the persons and organisation you are unaware of. I did try to provide an explanation of the Lawrence murder but the link is much better. I am new to this and your criticism was welcome. I hope it makes me a better contributor.Moriarty73 22:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Title was judgmental?
Hi, I know the title was just using the words in the sources, but the "racism row" term gives the strong impression that there really was some racism indicated in the actions of the accused. Just because some people say so doesn't make it so. From the sources it seems this lecturer supports various studies which indicate some genetic differences but I don't see anything that indicates racism"Racism refers to the meme, beliefs, practices, and institutions that separate and discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed "race". The so called "holocaust deniers" have also been mislabled as "racists". People who don't like the views of these folks need to think up a new term because racism doesn't fit. Neutralizer 05:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- The Bell Curve is a form of racism. It is a meme, a belief, and a practice which separates and discriminates against people base on a percieved or ascribed "race". It is the belief that black people are less intelligent than white people. - Amgine | talk en.WN 06:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Frank Ellis has said that black people are less intelligent than white people. So, I think the original headline is adequote, especially when I used quotation marks for 'racism row.' Thus, I will re-use the original headline. Moriarty73 10:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
'Multiculturalism is doomed to failure... because it is based on the lie that all people, races and cultures are equal; that no one race or culture is better than any other... ' Frank Ellis
Racism does assume one race is superior over another.
'The Bell Curve theory has demonstrated to me beyond any reasonable doubt there is a gap in average black and white average IQ.' Frank Ellis
Although he praises the BNP in a new book he has previously claimed it was 'too socialist' for his liking.
I think it's an important story. He is a lecturer who claims different races have different intelligences. Of course he marks students' work, which, unusually for a UK university, is double marked.(Personal experience of a number of Higher Education institutions.)
I hope the above explains why 'racism row' is adequate. Moriarty73 10:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I suppose it's a semantics thing. I don't see any evidence the Bell Curve or this person "discriminates against people". In fact I think the thinking process which leads us to that conclusion is flawed. If we present data showing there is more lung cancer among smokers does that mean we discriminate against smokers? In terms of "superiority", I see no scientific data to support the view that higher IQ or intelligence is any more of a superiority indicator than being able to run fast. In fact, I'd say the latter is more important for the survival of a "race". In any event, I think the way the title is worded gives too much of an impression that the guy actually is racist and is defending his racist beliefs and I do not see where he is admitting or has been convicted of being a racist. Neutralizer 12:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, I tried to come up with a compromise; the title still includes the word some here think applies. I have to go out so if anyone feels the title should be reverted, please go ahead. Neutralizer 12:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
New headline is adequate
I accept the new headline as a compromise. The story is to do with Ellis's views on race and his has been accused of racism. That's why I put 'racism row' in quotations.Moriarty73 14:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
the Bell Curve theory
Just a comment for you guys to think about. The article states: "Frank Ellis ... also praised the Bell Curve theory, which claims ..." With a bit of investigation, it appears that The Bell Curve is a book which puts forth the theory claiming that <blah>. I think that sentence should be reworked to indicate that The Bell Curve is in fact a book, not a theory. And that the theory which was praised by Ellis was the theory discussed in the book. I don't believe the theory is called the Bell Curve theory. Stated as is, its definetly misleading to folks who were not familiar with the particular theory involved, but are definitely familiar with the normal distribution curve that is often referred to as the bell curve.
Also, with a change as I describe above, it becomes unclear whether Ellis praised the book or whether he praised the particular theory proposed by the book which has racist tones. Other, less controversial theories are also proposed by that book, and so one should not imply that the only theory in the book is the one in question. Not knowing anything factual about the actual events, I am not sure which is the real case (he praised the book or he praised the theory). At any rate, it should be made more clear by someone who does have that knowledge.
—188.8.131.52 15:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I hope the edit above suffices. I included a link from where the quote about intelligence is stated. Is it now clearer?Moriarty73 16:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- It reads much better now, and definitely more clear. I did italicize the book title, as a nit. —184.108.40.206 04:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)