Talk:EU states warned on CIA prisons

Clean up requests

A range of issues with this new article, but one in particular: jail, prison, and detention center. In journalism usage, jail is generally for holding persons before and during trial, prison is where convicted persons serve their sentences. Detention centers are used to hold people (usually temporarily) without a legal basis - that is, people who have not done something illegal but who are being held anyway, such as persons being deported for failing to gain a residence visa or who are being held as an illegal combatant according to the current administration in the United States. - Amgine | ^talk 21:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

the following definitions of prison confirm that the usage of this term in the article is appropriate. (lookup jail in wiki or wordnet to confirm that too.). further, the washpost report which brought this to light and other news reports too speak of prisons. if no further issues are raised over the article, i propose moving it from develop to publish. would amgine care to source the distinction b/w the three terms s/he oulined?

• • a correctional institution where persons are confined while on trial or for punishment
  • a prisonlike situation; a place of seeming confinement

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

• A prison is a place in which people are confined and deprived of a range of liberties. Prisons conventionally are institutions authorized by governments and forming part of a country's criminal justice system, or as facilities for holding prisoners of war. A prison system is the organizational arrangement of the provision and operation of prisons.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison

Doldrums 07:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Title proposal

"EU states warned on illegal CIA interrogation and detention centers"International 14:40, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

title is accurate as it stands. the bbc article [1] is titled " EU warned on 'secret CIA jails'", (their quotes), so this wiki article will report correctly that the EU states were warned in that manner.

do not understand the rationale behind the proposed change since, as it stands, neither this article nor its title makes any claim about the existence or character of these 'prisons'. Doldrums 17:05, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, by calling them a prison (whether they really exist or not) you imply that the people detained in them have been put through some sort of due process and convicted. Brian McNeil / ^talk 17:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Brian, the fact is, we don't have a term to addess this properly. Amgine tried to make some distinction, but according to him, people in a detention center are "innocent". I guess calling it "detention center" is POV too then. He also argued that "prison" and "jail" would not work. Let's face it, we don't have a word to describe the nature of these new type of establishments that is accurate. The inaccuracy in termenology is not really the important issue here. --vonbergm 18:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with you on this, but I do notice that a lot of other sites are calling them "jails". Incidentally, have you seen the addition at the bottom of the Water Cooler? Jimbo Wales is to be interviewed and the guys doing so are looking for questions. Time is short, as I believe the interview is on Monday. Brian McNeil / ^talk 18:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe "concentration camp" would give a rather accurate description...--85.49.230.2 19:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Vonbergm: I don't believe I said they were "innocent"; I thought I said they were held there for extra-legal reasons, such as being processed for deportation or for a status which is not a legal one (the USA's detention of "illegal combatants".) The term "detention camp" describes what they are for, what they do, while jail and prison have more precise definitions as you can see in many journalism style guides (this AP-based style guide adds Federal detention centers house those awaiting federal trials.) - Amgine | ^talk 19:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, you did not say "innocent" but explained that detention centers are for "people who have not done something illegal but who are being held anyway". I can't really tell the difference. But maybe that is not what you meant. But those people are not "awaiting federal trials" either. I can't find a word that fits the nature of these (alleged) establishments. --vonbergm 20:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

<nod> I would use the term detention center, as it is descriptive rather than prescriptive, and is used in many non-US countries for official centres where people are held awaiting government processing and are often controversial. It seems to fit exactly what is being discussed. - Amgine | ^talk 20:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Detention center is fine with me, although I don't think it fits exactly. For exmaple, the traditional use of "detention center" just means that people are held there for a certain (finite, usualy well defined) period. Also, people are not interrogated at detention centers. Looking at other news reports it seems that the problem of finding the right term is quite widespread. We could pick a specific term and make it Wikinews policy (and I could agree on any one of the mentioned options), or we could keep using the terms in a fairly liberal manner, as aspects of any one term fit the current situation, and other do not. This way, the floating use of vocabluary reflects the floating nature of these establishments. But again, I also have no objections to deciding on one specific term. --vonbergm 21:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)