Talk:Riots break out at Neo-Nazi rally in Toledo, Ohio

You need to write a longer article with more information. Your citation style is also incorrect. Lines like "less than welcoming reaction of the non-white residents." and "by all accounts was far less violent than the era of nazism being celebrated" while clever do not conform to the Wikinews NPOV policy. Please read the guidelines before publishing the story. Also this line, "Later, Fox Cable had hosts and guests defending the right of neo-nazis to march in a predominantly black neighborhood citing the right of free expression and association." needs work. Get some actual quotations. Don't just focus on Fox News, as it seems like you're presenting that in a negative light and Wikinews is not the place for anti-Fox rhetoric (deserved as it may be). You need to provide far more detail about the story. As it stands it should not be published. --Wolfrider 22:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

an important story

I would suggest that this story is important but very complex and highly controversial. As such, perhaps a number of writers could bring in a number of objective sources, which arguably Fox News is not. It would appear the police were protecting free speech and that the community protesters exerted their free speech and the police got caught in the middle. So we have the neo-Nazis, the minority community and the police ... and now a state of emergency.

--Psusen 00:52, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Still major problems

Despite this being an important story, it is seriously lacking in information and still does not conform to Wikinews NPOV policy. Specifically phrases such as, "Nazi uprising" and "significant casualties". I also do not understand the line about Fox News defending the marchers. Provide context to your article. I'm not sure if Mr. Gatti is constantly reverting the changes to this article to be arch, or if he simply does not understand Wikinews policy. If it is the latter, I urge him to read the help sections and look at other published articles to get an idea of what is expected. If needed I will rewrite the story later on tonight unless someone else can get to it. I'm AGAIN, flagging this article as NPOV and moving back to the development page. DO NOT publish this article again without community consensus and additional information. --Wolfrider 15:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed some offending phrases, but left the fox news bit in anyways, since Fox did report the story before anyone else and did some disturbing censorship of its own reporters.

Can you provide examples and citation about it? It would be interesting to read? --Wolfrider 15:35, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere "offical", though to be honest mainstream media sources would never carry it. If you could find someone with a taped copy of the Fox News coverage then you could pick it out. I hear it was edited out of the video news clip on Fox News website. I've seen it mentioned on various forums and web blogs. --128.2.141.33 18:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

"Source" overthrow.com

Do we have to link (and thus endorse) to a website that has a picture of the mass-murderer Heinrich Himmler on every page right next to the phrase "Join the National Socialist Movement"? --Deprifry|+T+ 16:02, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Link removed due to 404 on target server. --Pvtparts 23:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It's ucomfortable for me too. Unfortunately the link is a legitimate source and does provide information that can be useful to fleshing out the story. --Wolfrider 16:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Legitimate how? This site doesn't even come close to a reliable source and it's impossible to distinguish between real information (if any is present) and plain propaganda. --Deprifry|+T+ 16:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Well it's useful for providing the NSM's view of things. Which, despite how dirty it makes me feel, is necessary for a balanced article. --Wolfrider 16:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The link is the website of Bill White, and it contains vital information regarding the riot. If you don't believe it is accurate, then you might be politically motivated. Why should we only allow the communist/socialist perspective and not Bill White, who has already shown himself to be honest when it comes to reporting this event? Or perhaps only communist ADL types are the only NPOV sources we can trust?

You just want to throw out any information that doesn't further your communist nonsense. Please become NPOV. I'm glad Wolfrider is being fair, at any rate.--128.2.141.33 18:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

FYI: I'm also mentally and physically retarded, black, jewish and gay. So if you want to do some further Personal attacks, here's your ammunition. --Deprifry|+T+ 18:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I happen to be a communist you capitalist dog. I'm defending it because the article has to hear from both sides, no matter how retarded those sides happen to be. It's purely in the effort of balancing the article. --Wolfrider 20:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

== Mostly black neighborhood

Is this true? I've heard the neighborhood referred to as a Polish neighborhood that was being overcome with black crime. If that is the case, it would be akin to saying that Chicago was mostly Italian in the 1920s and 1930s because of the Mafia. --128.2.141.33 18:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point. Can someone veryify this? --Wolfrider 20:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Completely POV

This is probably the most biased article I have seen on WN so far. It almost entirely only presents the Nazi's POV:

• Calm has been restored after a Saturday rally held by members of the National Socialist Movement (NSM) to protest black gang violence (1) in Toledo, Ohio was met with less than a warm reception (2) by non-white residents (3) and anti-racist groups. The police force, which gave permission and protection to the neo-nazi group to hold the planned rally was surprised by the counter-protest that ensued.

• The minority opposition (4) to the rally was forceful, and was thought to be egged on and armed by various local communist and socialist (5) groups such as the Anti-Racist Action. The counter-rally was not deadly (6) and effectively ended the march as it was getting started. During the riot, several vehicles had their windows broken and one was set on fire at a gas station; a local pub was burned down by rioters.

• Toledo Mayor Jack Ford accused the marchers of intentionally inciting the violence. He said this was "...exactly what they wanted." Police resorted to tear gas to disperse the crowd of nearly 500. As many as 60 counter-rally protestors were arrested. Mayor Ford declared a state of emergency and called on state police for the assistance to help city police maintain order. An 8pm curfew was put in place.

• About 20 members of the International Socialists Organization and the One People's Project, who were marching in opposition to the National Socialist Movement, reportedly handed eggs to some African-American counter marchers. (7)

• The NSM bills itself as America's Nazi Party and claims it was there to protest black gangs which, according to NSM spokesman Bill White, have been harrassing white residents. White also claimed that the NSM recieved support from community activists and citizens. (8)

• Fox Cable had hosts and guests defending the right of neo-nazis to march in a predominantly black neighborhood, citing the constitutional right of free expression and association. One incident in particular was when Paige Hopkins, a reporter for Fox News, was cut mid-sentence and replaced by someone who was not a regular anchor while reporting on the story. (9)

1: Claim by the NSM, disputed by locals
2: "less than warm reception"? What sort of style is this?
3: Implies that white residents of Toledo endorse the Nazis
4: Opinion about strength of opposition
5: Claim by the NSM, no independant source, disputed by One Peoples Project [1]
6: "not deadly"? A demonstration without fatalities?. That's really rare at demonstrations in the US, right?
7: see 5
8: White said this, White said that. Where are the response to these allegations?
9: Completely unsourced

IMHO, this article is beyond repair. --Deprifry|+T+ 18:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Good points. -Edbrown05 18:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I think when dealing with a story like this it's easy to, in an attempt to balance things, to move to far in one direction. I'll try to tackle your points one by one.

1:I think the term claim (at least how I use it) is to imply that this is their "opinion" and is not meant to give their opinion more relevance than others.
2:I agree this is a stupid sentence. It was part of the original article which accused Fox News of being a ("bastian of right wing issues").
3:Claiming that they had "support" from community members and activists was taken from CNN's piece, with the article from Overthrow.com, we can use actual quotes from Bill White which will enforce that this is merely his side of the story.
4:Agreed.
5:Agreed. To be fair, I added most of the NSM stuff myself. In no way do I agree with their opinion it just happened to be the first I started working on.
6:Agreed. "The counter rally was not deadly" ridiculous line. Also, part of the oringial writers post and what prompted me to flag it as NPOV and remove it from the front page.
8: They aren't there because I haven't had time to add them. I'm trying to salvage someone elses article. Please add them.
9: Unsourced? I'm not sure what you mean. [Edit] Okay, now I know what you mean. Was looking at the wrong part. Actually I was looking at the wrong parts for most of these responses. Oi, I'm tired. ;-)

I don't think this is beyond repair. We should cover it. It's just going to require us to remove most of it. It is a mess. --Wolfrider 20:28, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Neutral Now?

I've gone over Deprify's critiques and adjusted the article accordingly. The only thing I didn't alter was the claim that some of the counter-protestors handed eggs out. I think it's a small, but nonetheless legitimate element to the story and sourced by CNN, so it stays. I don't think I've missed any of the other complaints. If there's no objections I think we can publish it. I'll leave it up to other users to decide to remove the tag and publish it. If there's no movement by morning I'll do it myself.

Thanks for the list Dep, it made editing the thing a whole lot easier. --Wolfrider 04:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Didn't thought that was possible. Great work, thanks a lot. --Deprifry|+T+ 08:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

CNN said that White said the eggs were handed out by the communists. I've updated that. I also pointed out that nobody knows who lit the fires. Could have been rioters, but who knows. Good article though (mostly). Wisty 04:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)