Talk:Wikimedia Foundation receives copyright infringement claim from Mormon Church

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Articles for deletion
This page was previously nominated for deletion.

Please see prior discussion(s) before considering re-nomination:


OR refers to the copyright infringement claim sent to WMF, as well as material from primary source documents and past lawsuits, etc. Cirt (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Marked as {{ready}} by Cirt (talk) -- Cirt (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Reviewed and marked as {{publish}} by Markie (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Note I forwarded the copyvio assertion to Cirt from OTRS. This is "bending" the rules for OTRS, but not a public disclosure. I can forward to one or two other people who want to verify this, but it must remain confidential. Please note Cirt has respected the journalist-source relationship by not quoting any material from the document. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, nothing was directly quoted from it. The information used was pretty much the name of the WMF designated agent, the date on the letter, the fact that it is not a DMCA letter (or at least DMCA is not stated in the letter), but instead utilizes the wording "copyright infringement", and the name of the sender of the letter and his official title. Cirt (talk) 10:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Full quote from Wikileaks statement[edit]

Cults such as Scientology abuse copyright law, a state aparartus intended to fund authors of public works, to hide from public scrutiny and prevent the formation of dissident groups. If the Church of Latter-day Saints wants to be taken seriously as a religion it would be well advised to follow a different path. WikiLeaks will not remove the handbooks, which are of substantial interest to current and former mormons. WikiLeaks will remain a place were people from around the world can safely reveal the truth. -- Wikileaks

Full quote from Wikileaks statement. Cirt (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No DMCA?[edit]

Does this mean that the WN:DR for Copy of handbook for leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints obtained by Wikinews should be reopened? --SVTCobra 23:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am aware what was received was a claim of "copyright infringement", via a letter, but according to Mike Godwin this was not itself a "DMCA notice", as per his email to the Wikinews list. Cirt (talk) 23:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd need to check what (IIRC) Craig posted. It is an easy mistake to confuse a copyright infringement claim with a DMCA notice. This, I think, is the better of the two articles to go with and effectively supersedes the other. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"Supercedes"? This one could not have existed without the history of the previous article. And aside from that, the result of the (currently frozen) Deletion Request discussion appears to be "no consensus" at present. I think we should most certainly retain both. Cirt (talk) 10:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
My mistake. I think I'd close the DR. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see, closed by Brianmc (talk · contribs) as "no consensus" [1]. That took a while. Cirt (talk) 10:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
But no consesus was reached because the DR was halted/frozen before time, due to the "DMCA notice". Shouldn't it be reopened? --SVTCobra 13:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

<unindent> I'm not sure if it should be reopened. What I'm more concerned about is this article being listed on WN:DR. Adambro, I've never seen you once post on the checkuser-l mailing list, you are subscribed? You do follow the IRC channel? --Brian McNeil / talk 14:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That's odd, since you voted to delete it, have you changed your mind about that article? (why are you talking to Adam here? I don't think he has posted in this thread) --SVTCobra 14:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Update: The previous article's Deletion Request discussion was closed by Brianmc (talk · contribs) as "no consensus", but now this article has a Deletion Request discussion ongoing, started by Adambro (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Update - closed as Speedy keep, after hitting the front page of Slashdot. [2] - Cirt (talk) 15:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Name of this article[edit]

From w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church..." -- going with the title "Wikimedia Foundation receives copyright infringement claim from Mormon Church" for this article because "Mormon Church" is a "widely known" term for the church, and "Wikimedia Foundation receives copyright infringement claim from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is just way too long of a name/headline. Cirt (talk) 05:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss before changing the name of this article. Cirt (talk) 05:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


For potential re-use on Wikipedia:

  • I hereby license all my contributions to this article under GFDL in addition to Wikinews' CC-BY-2.5 license. (However I would suggest citing the same sources that I give as sources at the bottom of this article, same as prior articles.) -- Cirt (talk) 05:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

you don't need as CC-BY-2.5 is compatible with GFDL licence (but not in the reverve). In order to remember: Knowledge goes to Wikipedia !!! (i do not remember the verse number sorry)(i joke of course, nothing more :) Jacques Divol (talk) 09:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Ral315 (talk · contribs) has requested this be done, for cross-use at The Wikipedia Signpost, so you'd have to ask him to explain the rationale. Cirt (talk) 09:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Carried by[edit]

Will list below. Cirt (talk) 05:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Publicised by Wikileaks[edit]

Wikileaks mailing list has either spotted this, or been notified of it.

The message is on wikileaks' mailing list, which the archive of is only available to subscribers. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Is the message at the Wikileaks mailing list the same as this ? Cirt (talk) 10:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it is. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is linked through the Front Page of Slashdot, right now[edit] = Front page of Slashdot

That Slashdot post links to:

And that page at Wikileaks copies this article, attributes it back to Wikinews, and links back to, you guessed it, yes, that's right - right here to this article. Cirt (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources post publish[edit]

Well, that is, in addition to those already cited above. Cirt (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The Digg link to this one is on the front page of, right now [3]. Cirt (talk) 07:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Not news[edit]

Sorry I didn't get to comment on the deletion request but IMO this is not news. 100s of DMCA notices are sent every day. Anonymous101 :) 16:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently Ars Technica and the front page of Slashdot disagree with you. Cirt (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
We don't judge newsworthiness based on popularity on other sites. Digg front page has "New Sites Make It Easier To Spy on Your Friends". It is not newsworthy in any way and we shouldn't consider it such. I think that Google search results have linked received these almost daily. Anonymous101 :) 16:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Brianmc (talk · contribs), Markie (talk · contribs), Ryan524 (talk · contribs), Deprifry (talk · contribs) and myself all also expressed sentiments that the article is newsworthy. Cirt (talk) 17:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Name of the Church[edit]

"The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This full name was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith in 1838.— While the term "Mormon Church" has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use.

When writing about the Church, please follow these guidelines:

In the first reference, the full name of the Church is preferred: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Please avoid the use of “Mormon Church,” “LDS Church” or “the Church of the Latter-day Saints.” When a shortened reference is needed, the terms “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ” are encouraged. When referring to Church members, the term “Latter-day Saints” is preferred, though “Mormons” is acceptable. "Mormon” is correctly used in proper names such as the Book of Mormon, Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Mormon Trail, or when used as an adjective in such expressions as “Mormon pioneers.” The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ...” —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That appears to be some sort of preferred style guide, however unfortunately that is not the convention, as made apparent in numerous usage in news/media coverage. 36,700 results for "Mormon Church" in Google News. 2,590 results for "Mormon Church" at Google books. And 1,730,000 results for "Mormon Church" in a regular Google search. Cirt (talk) 04:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
83,900 results for "LDS Church" at Google news, 1141 results for "LDS Church" at Google Books, and 1,550,000 results for "LDS Church" at Google. Cirt (talk) 04:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The exact same post was made by this IP to Wikipedia. Cirt (talk) 04:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The phrase "Mormon Church" appears 3 times in the article "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in the encyclopedia Encarta by Davis Bitton, M.A., Ph.D., professor of history at the University of Utah. Cirt (talk) 05:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Funk & Wagnalls New World Encyclopedia also uses the term "Mormon Church" to refer to the church in its main article on "Mormonism" (also written by Davis Bitton, M.A., Ph.D.). Cirt (talk) 05:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
While not exactly in line with the style guide of the LDS Church (although they should be allowed to determine what the name of their own church is), the Associated Press Stylebook says that the full name of the church should be used initially, and the term Mormon Church can be used after that. Headlines are not addressed as being the initial use or not. If the style guide of the subject is not to be used, then I would think that the AP Stylebook should be the journalistic standard to be used by WikiNews. Alanraywiki (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Link/reference please? Cirt (talk) 18:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I went to our university library for a copy of the Associated Press Stylebook, printed in Cambridge Mass by Perseus c2002 with ISBN-10: 046500489X. It's a copyrighted book so I do not believe there is a link for it, but it should be readily available in any public library. Alanraywiki (talk) 18:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I will consult this reference and get back to you. Cirt (talk) 18:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
My rather old copy of the AP style guide says: "Mormon church is acceptable in all references, but always include the proper name in a story dealing primarily with church activities".--Cspurrier (talk) 19:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
If that is the case then that is exactly what was done in this article. Cirt (talk) 19:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Goldstein, Norm. The Associated Press Stylebook, Basic Books; Rev Ed edition (June 29, 2004) ISBN: 0465004881, Pages 48, 162.

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The - Note the capitalization and punctuation of Latter-day. Mormon church, LDS church, or the Latter-day Saints can be used, but the official name is preferred in first reference in a story dealing primarily with church activities. (Page 48)


Mormon church - Acceptable in references to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but the official name is preferred in first reference in a story dealing primarily with church activities. (Page 162)

Again, precisely what was done in this article. Cirt (talk) 22:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As for headlines, here are some utilizing the term "Mormon Church", in main stream media: The Washington Post, International Herald Tribune, The New York Times, San Francisco Chronicle, USA Today, The Associated Press, Deutsche Welle, Boston Herald, CNN, Seattle Post-Intelligencer. Cirt (talk) 22:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)