Talk:Hungarian state-owned enterprise acquires Hirtenberger Defence Group

Sources layout

To help fellow editors and reviewers, let me highlight source segments, pinpoint Hungarian source sentences and provide their translations here.

• Hirtenberger Press Release

first, second and third paragraphs: ownership transfer details, importance to Hungary, current company structure to be kept

last paragraph: HDT is state-owned

• rmx.news

third paragraph: research costs

fourth and fifth paragraphs: bank loan (bank not named), no cost to state budget, profitability, no idle manufacturing capacity

sixth paragraph: current company structure to be kept, Hungarian engineers to be added

seventh and eight paragraphs: CZ license, firearms factory in Kiskunfélegyháza

• Magyar Nemzet (Maróth interview)

"2010-ben egy gyakorlatilag lefegyverzett honvédséget vett át a polgári kormány."

In 2010 [after the elections] we took over an effectively disarmed army. - "polgári kormány" stands for Fidesz-KDNP cabinet; translated as "we"

"Vagyis a haderő modernizációja a „vas” megvétele mellett a tudástranszferre is kiterjed."

So the army modernization does not just cover buying "hardware" but technology transfer as well. - "tudástranszfer" stands for acquiring know-how

"Hosszú tárgyalássorozat után pedig az állam megvásárolta a brit–osztrák Hirtenberger Defence Systems nevű hadiipari céget."

Following lengthy negotiations the [Hungarian] state bought the British-Austrian military equipment manufacturer Hirtenberger Defence System.

"Számítanak-e politikai feszültségre a szomszédsági viszonyban? – Nem számítunk."

Do you expect a political price to be payed in neighborly relations? – No, we don't.

"A cégre, információim szerint, több nemzetközi jelentkező is volt."

According to my sources, the company was sought to be bought by many international players.

"Ez a tranzakció is beleillik a magyar miniszterelnök által nemrég bejelentett tőkekihelyezési stratégiába."

This transaction also fits into the framework of capital allocation strategy recently announced by the Hungarian prime minister.

"A következő év márciusában licencszerződést írtunk alá... 2018-ban a kiskunfélegyházi kézifegyvergyár már el is kezdte az összeszerelést."

March, next year [2018] we signed the license agreement... and in 2018 the firearms factory in Kiskunfélegyháza has started assembling [them] already.

• a critical Népszava article

"Orbánék 13 milliárdért vették meg az osztrák fegyvergyárat"

Title: Orbán bought the Austrian weapons manufacturer for 13 billion [Hungarian forint]

"... a Magyar Nemzeti Vagyonkezelő (MNV) alá tartozó projekttársaság tulajdonába került a fegyvergyár. "

... the weapons manufacturer is now owned by a project company of the Hungarian National Asset Management, Inc. - "MNV" is a common abbreviation used in place of "Magyar Nemzeti Vagyonkezelő"

"Az, hogy a jelek szerint megkerülték a tárcát, különös, de nem egészen váratlan lépés: lapunk írt arról először, hogy jelentős átalakítás jöhet a honvédelmi minisztériumnál, amely még az idén elveszítheti háttérintézményei nagy részét."

Circumstances suggest that the [defense] ministry was circumvented, which is peculiar, but not exactly unforeseen: we were the first to write about the substantial changes possible to come, as the defense ministry might lose much of its institutional background before New Year's Eve.

"Katonai forrásaink arra is felhívták a figyelmet, hogy ugyan a magyar honvédségnél elkél a HDS által gyártott 60-81 és 120 milliméteres aknavető, de az már inkább kérdéses, hogy a világpiacon miként tudják értékesíteni ezeket a fegyvereket. Aknavetőket ugyanis igen sokan gyártanak és óriási az árverseny ezen a területen."

Our military sources pointed out also, that although the Hungarian Defence Force needs HDS-made 60-81 and 120 mm mortars, their ability to sell them on the world market is rather questionable. Mortars are made by many [companies], so price competition is tough in this segment.

"A harckocsik karbantartásával foglalkozó HM Currus Gödöllői Harcjárműtechnikai Zrt. és a HM Elektronikai, Logisztikai és Vagyonkezelő Zrt. a Magyar Nemzeti Vagyonkezelőhöz kerülne, ..."

HM Currus, which deals with tank and APC repair, and HM Electronics, Logistics and Property Management plc. would end up under the Hungarian National Asset Management, Inc. - "HM" stands for Ministry of Defence

• a critical Alfahír article

"... a gyártás ugyanis Ausztriában maradna, így ami a kormány számára értékes lehet, az a technológia megszerzése."

... the manufacturing is to stay in Austria, so what the government might be after, is the technology.

• Government decree No. 1430/2019

"... az MFB Magyar Fejlesztési Bank Zártkörűen Működő Részvénytársaság által a HDT Védelmi ipari Kft. ... részére ... legfeljebb 38 800 000 euró vagy annak megfelelő forint összegű hitelből eredő fizetési kötelezettségek 100%-áig ... a magyar államot visszavonhatatlan készfizető kezesség terheli"

The Hungarian Development Bank plc. provided loan to HDT Védelmi Ipari Kft., to the maximum amount of 38.8 million euro or equivalent amount of Hungarian forint, is covered by the non-revocable, joint and several liability of the Hungarian state.

• Euronews article on NATO military expenditures

Trump tweets

• NATO press release

data on Hungary's ME to GDP ratio

• Airbus press release

data on the planned Gyula site

Hope this was helpful. - Xbspiro (talk) 05:07, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Unlinked source

• HDT Védelmi Ipari Korlátolt Felelősségű Társaság; Certificate of Incorporation

used for this sentence: "HDT Limited was registered on August 6, 2019"

To confirm the date, seek for paragraph (8):

"Bejegyzés kelte: 2019/08/06 " - Registration procedure completed on: August 06, 2019. - Xbspiro (talk) 16:23, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Possible picture source

Under fair use, I think we might use their media library. - Xbspiro (talk) 06:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Sources

@Xbspiro: I've been trying to understand the source publishers better.

• rmx.org — I was quite perplexed by this; I've no clue what it is. The article itself claims to be syndicated from Magyar Nemzet; that would be crucial to know even if rmx.org were a known quantity.
• Alfahír — en.wp's List of newspapers in Hungary lists this, with orientation "right, national radicalism". I also see a reference to it (at [1]) as "Jobbik's", and en.wp describes Jobbik as having "radical and nationalist roots".

--Pi zero (talk) 18:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero: Thanks for taking the time.

• rmx.news is new for me; there is no information about them at all on their homepage, FB or on [netim.com] - I chose their article as it mirrored the Magyar Nemzet article relatively well. Could be substituted with:
  • a Budapest Business Journal article and/or
  • a Daily News Hungary article.
• Alfahír is associated with Jobbik - the party was on the far-right, but started to move towards the center/left in 2013, which resulted in the secession of its rightist core (Our Homeland Movement / Mi Hazánk) after the 2018 elections. During the 2019 local elections Jobbik took part in an electoral alliance with center/leftist parties against Fidesz-KDNP. Alfahír followed these trends.
  • If required, the one sentence which is sourced to this article can be removed, along with the reference. - Xbspiro (talk) 19:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero: rmx.news seems to be the property of FWD Affairs Limited, which seems to be affiliated with the Hungarian government:

• 2016 Magyar Nemzet article about a deal valued at 14 million HUF (no subject given);
• 2017 Népszava article about a 3.4 million HUF deal to "support international communications".

Their news coverage seems to be mildly anti-EU, which fits the Hungarian government's internal rhetoric about the EU. In early 2019, the Fidesz-leaning Magyar Idők was rebranded as Magyar Nemzet (it was the name of a popular daily until 2018). The article is probably syndicated, but I have found no confirmation to that. Might be better to use another English source. - Xbspiro (talk) 20:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I've swapped out rmx.news for the Budapest Business Journal. --Pi zero (talk) 00:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Analysis

We avoid analysis in our own voice, and when attributing analysis to others, those we attribute it to should be part of the story. News orgs ordinarily aren't part of the story.

• The third-to-last paragraph cites Népszava for some speculation. They don't seem like part of the story.
• The last paragraph appears to be speculating without attribution.

I want to do the source-check before deciding what to do about these, so I'm as connected to what is known as possible. --Pi zero (talk) 21:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero: Let me try to rephrase this sentence and attribute it to sources.

Version 1: The acquisition is part of the Hungarian military development program dubbed "Zrínyi 2026" and the “outward investment” strategy announced by Viktor Orbán. or alternatively

Version 2: The acquisition fits into the Hungarian “outward investment” strategy announced by Viktor Orbán. (In the closing paragraph:) Hungary launched a military development program dubbed "Zrínyi 2026" in 2017 to address structural and financial challenges faced by the Defence Force and to renew its equipment.

Sources for the “outward investment” strategy:

Maróth interview: "Ez a tranzakció is beleillik a magyar miniszterelnök által nemrég bejelentett tőkekihelyezési stratégiába."

My translation: This transaction fits into the [framework of] capital allocation strategy “outward investment” strategy recently announced by the Hungarian prime minister.

By that, Maróth refers to a February 27 speech of Viktor Orbán:

English summary - keyword: “outward investment” strategy

Word-by-word transcript (Hungarian) - keyword: kifektetési stratégia

National Television (MTV) field coverage (Hungarian)

About the development program:

The Maróth-interview mentions the program, but there is no quotable sentence to link the purchase directly to Zrínyi 2026. - So I would go with version 2.

2016 Defence Ministry article about the program (English)

English summary of the 2019 annual Defence Ministry report - keyword: Defence and Armed Forces Development Programme

If there is more clarification needed, please say so. I will address the other problems soon. - Xbspiro (talk) 03:38, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero: This was the only sentence sourced to Alfahír, so that source can be deleted from the list.

It might be replaced with a quote from Maróth: "Vagyis a haderő modernizációja a „vas” megvétele mellett a tudástranszferre is kiterjed." (My translation: So the army modernization does not just cover buying "hardware" but technology transfer as well.)

The location info (Austria, UK, NZ) might better be moved to this paragraph, as we write about keeping the company structure here. The rest of the second paragraph could be added to the lede to cover 5W there. - Xbspiro (talk) 03:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero: I see nothing else to be clarified, the deletions make sense. Thank you. - Xbspiro (talk) 04:15, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

A German source

I relied on machine translation, but this German Der Standard article from July seems to cover the sale intent. CEO Markus Haidenbauer quoted no growth potential as a reason to sell the arms division:

• "Wir sehen im Defence-Bereich kein Wachstumspotenzial... "

"We see no growth potential in the defense sector... "

This might be used to support the opinion of Népszava experts . - Xbspiro (talk) 06:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Xbspiro: I'm about to publish. And then, honestly, go to bed (it's way past my bedtime, where I am). If you submit a post-publish change to the article, I'll try to take a look at it at opportunity — though I have things to do for the first few hours of the morning, so it's likely to be a good nine hours or more before I might get to it. --Pi zero (talk) 06:49, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero:Thank you for the review, I appreciate your time invested, and I am impressed that you did it despite the language barrier. Good night, - Xbspiro (talk) 06:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Review of revision 4527452 [Passed]

Revision 4527452 of this article has been reviewed by Pi zero (talk · contribs) and has passed its review at 06:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC). Copyright: Passed Newsworthiness: Passed Verifiability: Passed NPOV: Passed Style: Passed Comments by reviewer: The extensive notes on the talk page, and the reporter's continuing help during the review process, were tremendously valuable. For me, this was a review with an unfamiliar context to be gradually explored and a (substantially) unfamiliar source language for many of the sources (and lurking behind some of the others); the notes and other help made the whole feasible, though of course still an extraordinarily large review task. I found this a rewarding review experience, bringing to an international English-language audience high-quality coverage of a story that warrants such coverage but afaict has not been receiving it. Note the edits during review to defuse analysis (either by attributing, objectifying, or occasionally cutting). Thank you for submitting this. The reviewed revision should automatically have been edited by removing {{Review}} and adding {{Publish}} at the bottom, and the edit sighted; if this did not happen, it may be done manually by a reviewer.

Revision 4527452 of this article has been reviewed by Pi zero (talk · contribs) and has passed its review at 06:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC). Copyright: Passed Newsworthiness: Passed Verifiability: Passed NPOV: Passed Style: Passed Comments by reviewer: The extensive notes on the talk page, and the reporter's continuing help during the review process, were tremendously valuable. For me, this was a review with an unfamiliar context to be gradually explored and a (substantially) unfamiliar source language for many of the sources (and lurking behind some of the others); the notes and other help made the whole feasible, though of course still an extraordinarily large review task. I found this a rewarding review experience, bringing to an international English-language audience high-quality coverage of a story that warrants such coverage but afaict has not been receiving it. Note the edits during review to defuse analysis (either by attributing, objectifying, or occasionally cutting). Thank you for submitting this. The reviewed revision should automatically have been edited by removing {{Review}} and adding {{Publish}} at the bottom, and the edit sighted; if this did not happen, it may be done manually by a reviewer.

Update

Some newspapers (such as Világgazdaság) wrote yesterday that the manufacturing site will be relocated to Hungary. No official confirmations yet. - Xbspiro (talk) 11:11, 28 August 2021 (UTC)