User talk:Pi zero

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I watch talk pages where I have recently left messages. Please reply in the same section to make discussion easier to follow.
If you leave a message on this page, I'll reply to it here.

Omit needless words.
William Strunk, Jr.

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User:Mário Manuel Pinto[edit]

Please delete this user page. It contains only non-English text. Thanks. --Francisco (talk) 01:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@Francisco Leandro: It's not clear to me this is a problem. It's the user's own page, and doesn't appear promotional afaics, nor even contain personal information of the sort that would justify deletion when posted by the account owner. --Pi zero (talk) 01:37, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Celtic FC wins sixth consecutive Scottish Premiership title[edit]

Hi Pi zero, I have made the changes you requested to the above page during the review stage. Please give it a look and let me know of any other changes which may need to be made. Cheers, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 11:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

File:Map of syria.jpg[edit]

Do we really need a non-free image which does not provide information about its source? I don't think this is similar to the local upload issue. What to do?
acagastya 08:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC)



  3. (I guess I as slow)

acagastya 08:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


Hi, I have to go to sleep now; If the spambots reappear, consider reporting them in Meta so that the stewards will disable the accounts globally and, in step, block the IPs. Regards. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 08:08, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

More Spambots[edit]

Block the last one on the list. PokestarFan (talk) 21:53, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Update the list

Can you become my mentor[edit]

Can you become my mentor? I want to learn how to write the news correctly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SashaFAQ (talkcontribs) 10:28, 13 April 2017‎

@SashaFAQ: I'm considering what would be most helpful to say to you first; I didn't miss your note here.

Btw, you put your {{Helpme}} note on your user page instead of your user talk page; it should be moved. --Pi zero (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

@SashaFAQ: Btw, I've not forgotten. --Pi zero (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Another one[edit]

What is the best system of warning you? PokestarFan (talk) 12:40, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

@PokestarFan: Well, come to think, this is a disadvantage of the unusual way you've set up that separate page with a list of the spambot accounts. The usual way of informing all admins of such a problem is a notice at WN:AAA; that's what the page is for. Active admins watch that page, so as to notice any edit to it; by moving the list off-page, admins are no longer notified when the list is added to. (While reminds me, another drawback to the current arrangement is that it fails to leave a readily visible record of when particular accounts were added to the list. I'm thinking on how I might tweak the arrangement; you'll have noticed I've made a couple of tweaks so far. In the long run I think we'll want to move back to something much more like the traditional arrangment; but there's no hurry about it.) --Pi zero (talk) 13:25, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

How are you always on?[edit]

No matter when I check, you are always active and doing something that can be seen on Recent Changes. Are you a robot who can think and act like a person? What is your secret? PokestarFan (talk) 21:04, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Lately I'm spending almost all my waking life on Wikinews. It isn't always obvious that I'm doing so; just atm it's more visible because there's a lot of activity, due to this big spambot problem. This afternoon I'm been deleting unsuccessful articles from a university journalism class that just came through (Autumn 2017 semester at the University Wollongong). --Pi zero (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
@PokestarFan: I wasn't satisfied with my answer. Here's a second try: I wish I could put twice as much time into Wikinews (and Wikibooks). The key to making Wikinews work better — and all the other sisters too, including Wikipedia — is crowdsourced semi-automated assistance (essay). We have lots of expert tasks here, which newbies could do better, and learn to do better, with semi-automated assistance; and experts could do more if the tasks could be done with smaller lump investments of time. I have the ability to design and implement the technology, given enough time; but the project has to keep running while I work on the tools that would allow me to... have time to work on the tools. --Pi zero (talk) 22:50, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Creation of methods to combat spambots[edit]

Hi, does this wiki have self-promotion criteria for autoconfirmed users? If not, I think it would be a good idea to define them in order to add effectiveness to methods such as the TitleBlackList and thus make the life of the spambots a little more difficult. In addition, I discard that coincidentally an IP or a newly registered user will create a news about some antivirus, operating system or email manager. What do you think? Regards. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 22:31, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

@AlvaroMolina: I deduce we must have such a thing here, because users aren't allowed to rename a page until four days after their account is created. Turns out, though, I don't know where to find it to confirm that's what happens at the four-day mark. --Pi zero (talk) 22:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Wikinews:Autoconfirmed users indicates that it is 3 days. Melos configured an abuse filter that could stop this situation on this wiki. So let's hope it works. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 23:10, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Google blocks home device from responding to Burger King commercial[edit]

I just finished an article. Hope it can be reviewed soon. (Iuio (talk) 11:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC))

Differences in numbers between sources[edit]

Hi, I think I have asked him some time, but I think I have forgotten him; When an article is created and when searching for sources you find that one says (for example: 19 deceased, another says 22 deceased and another 20). What should be done in these cases? Should I prioritize the highest number indicated by the sources or should I remove the article number and only refer to "several deceased" or "dozens of deceased"? I will appreciate your help. Regards. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 19:40, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@AlvaroMolina: There are several techniques one can use, I think. The goal is to not report something wrong, and to give the reader an understanding of what is and is not known. It may depend partly on the likely cause of the disagreement between sources: is it really uncertain, or is each source reporting the latest number as they went to press and the numbers are growing as more information becomes available? In the example you give, I could imagine saying "at least 19", or giving a range with an explanation, such as "by varying reports from 19 to 22" (or conceivably, if the number is also expected to rise further, "by varying reports from 19 to 22 so far"). Sometimes specific sources of information matter, as with an earthquake article where, iirc, USGS disagreed with its European equivalent on the magnitude, and our lede named both sources and both numbers. --Pi zero (talk) 19:58, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, the topic specifically is with the article "An avalanche of garbage left at least 19 dead in Sri Lanka", in this case most of the Spanish sources and The New York Times indicate that 19 people died, but there are other English pages (that do not know if they are reliable) like Top News that indicate that the 22 died. Hence my doubt about whether to stick with what The New York Times says or let me lead by Top News. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 20:05, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
@AlvaroMolina: If most sources are reporting the lower number, and we're not too familiar with the sources reporting more, it sounds like we'd mainly want to tell about the lower number. --Pi zero (talk) 20:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. Regards. —Alvaro Molina ( - ) 20:17, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

How many user are online as of time in signature?[edit]

0? (talk) 11:13, 17 April 2017 (UTC)


Hello there. Forgive me for being unfamiliar with Wikinews deletion policy and for my ignorance on the Street View policy, I just waded over here following the Nongoloza stuff. But even ignoring the fact the image has no clear source, a photo of a named person captioned "WATCH OUT! CULT LEADER" doesn't meet any speedy deletion criteria? (In the short time it was up at Commons, it already floated into Google Image results for the person's name, and presumably this will now follow.) Is there really no db-attack equivalent at Wikinews? --McGeddon (talk) 12:52, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

@McGeddon: I understand there's some sort of larger picture here (cross-wiki). The overall shape of the situation hasn't been 100% clear to me, and truthfully I haven't had a chance to study it enough to grok what's going on. We can use common sense; trying to use Wikinews as a platform for a personal attack is obviously unacceptable. It wasn't clear to me, looking at the article, what the status of the image was relative to the article; usually (though there are occasional awkward exceptions) we can simply keep problematic material out of publication and it ultimately becomes abandoned, is deleted, and thus goes away. The occasional exceptions are especially persistent individuals who don't quite manage to get their material deleted outright or themselves blocked. When those cases, I generally find myself playing by ear. --Pi zero (talk) 13:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, that's fair enough, and the context isn't entirely clear to me either. But it seemed like a photo of someone labelled "WATCH OUT! CULT LEADER" (even with the best-faith interpretation that there was a terrorist bomb threat that did actually call out this guy as being the leader of a cult) should be at best cropped to remove the rabid commentary, rather than left in place. I've started a talk thread suggesting that Wikinews adopt a db-attack speedy criteria, as it seems odd not to have one. --McGeddon (talk) 14:32, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Interview re: State of Wikinews?[edit]

Hi Pi zero, I was wondering if you might be willing to talk by voice for the Wikipedia Weekly podcast about the state of Wikinews, especially in light of the recent WikiTribune announcement, and the mixed relationship Wikinews has had with the rest of the community over the years. Let me know, thanks. -- Fuzheado (talk) 13:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I hope someone will, because the lack of information around the relationship between Wikinews and Tribune is a concern Leighblackall (talk) 09:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@Fuzheado: I hope to email you later today to discuss this possibility (which I feel I need more information to assess). --Pi zero (talk) 15:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

A reply to your several remarks...[edit]

Hi Pi,

thank you for your remark, "Sorry we got off on a wrong foot over at the water cooler". ...It was my impression that sometimes we humans can be too close to something to see what is obvious to others less involved; I was in the role of being the less engaged and so having a perhaps broader perspective and point out the forest while some, closely involved for a long time, are focused on trees. I sincerely hope that my point is properly understood that the true character of existing policy isn't in question, rather the name and the articulation are. In your own words, "our NPOV policy page on Wikinews does a really poor job of explaining", and you go on to share an interest in writing an essay about it, "explaining it in a much more forthright and practical way, with an eye to possibly using the essay to draft an overhaul of the policy page." However, you go on to explain that you think it's "a big and difficult task", and I ponder why. It seems rather straight forward to get the primary components out there, "just objective facts, no opinion." (Even the name "Neutrality" would be vastly better than NPOV in my opinion.) ...Change the name and leave a paragraph or two on the idea that we all have biases - rather than think we (any of us) can truly not have any - and state the philosophy of trying to give a whole picture, being mindful about what's included and what's left out since what's left out can very effectively be used to shape a message (and therefor "propaganda") every bit as effectively as can what's included. (In fact, I've heard thoughtful historians explain that this is how the masses are manipulated most easily - by leaving out the facts that are inconvenient or painful to "the powers that be.")

Importantly, I also note that you think this is a minor issue and another point I was making is that it is not. I can't speak for others, but the NPOV policy literally brought laughter from my lips. Reading it was an exercise in mind-bending. I'm a scientist, I deal in facts, I'm trained to understand I have - we all have - biases ("points of view"), and trained to try and expose these through my / our work to ensure we're not fooling ourselves and doing useless work (or worse) because of it. Before choosing science, I spent a year working in the Justice Department as a legal aid, and thought about becoming a lawyer - I was urged to do so, people said I was gifted, but decided I wanted to expand knowledge rather than argue legal cases. ... Your closing remarks on the Water Cooler discussion addressing me, directly questioning what I "understand", claiming I wasn't presenting a "coherent" argument, presenting a "diagnosis" about me, all while not presenting facts about my argument - or even your opinion of my argument - doesn't reflect well on you, in my opinion. If you really think, "[my] remark was not an insult nor an attack" then I question if you're a native English speaker and in any event, you switched focus to me and not the policy or my proposals about it, and in my view that's inappropriate. ... I run several online chat forums and email lists and what you did would have gotten you at least a warning from our moderators that you can openly attack ideas but going after the person is out of line.

Note that I'm ready to fully admit a lot of my remarks there must for the time being remain in the realm of opinion since in this domain - the relative success or failure of the NPOV policy or the points I raised about it - there are precious few facts to be had, though fact or opinion, we at least apparently agree that it's not articulated well. In my view, it's readily apparent that the WikiNews project as a whole, and in particular the English section of it, hasn't worked out successfully. Sure, it's not gone, yes, it has some dedicated contributors, but then it has a benefactor; I seriously doubt it could stand on its own for any length of time. What's needed is a larger core of contributors, writers, editors, reviewers, etc. And it's my opinion the NPOV policy seriously inhibits that growth. Rather than just complain, I've laid out what I feel are worthwhile proposals for what to do about it. I hope they will be considered seriously

Regards, RTroy Rtroy (talk) 20:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@Rtroy: Understand, please, my words tend to be quite measured. On one hand, I am sorry we got off on the wrong root; it's unfortunate when bad relations are the result of misunderstandings, and there appear to have been various misunderstandings flying about in that initial exchange. It got worse later, as my contribution to the situation contained an oversight that you evidently misinterpreted, and none of your misunderstandings have yet been cleared up. For your part, besides specifics of misunderstandings (I suspect you may have some difficulty taking criticism; if so, you need to work on that), it appears you have a tendency to jump to conclusions, and a temper that you need to learn to control better.

I think the situation might be helped if I write a detailed post here tracing through the events on the water cooler with untangling of factual and interpersonal confusions/misunderstandings as it unfolded chronologically. That's going to be a time-consuming task and, with an appalling list of time-consuming tasks on and off Wikinews atm, I honestly don't know how long it's likely to take me to get to it. --Pi zero (talk) 13:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Thx for deleting spam[edit]

I was surprised to learn that I had had a User page on Wininews, and you had deleted it. Upon investigation, I found that you had concluded that it was spam. The page was created from IP address was That's in Kiev, according to I suppose any user page that is not create by a user logged in is likely spam -- especially if it's created from Kiev? Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@DavidMCEddy: Yes, I see it was an ad, in French, for some sort of medicine to treat erectile dysfunction. --Pi zero (talk) 21:57, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I'd be interested in your reactions to my Submission for Wikimania2017: Submissions/Building Wikinews into the premier news site worldwide DavidMCEddy (talk) 23:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
@DavidMCEddy: I see you wandering, unaware (I suspect), into a minefield — an explosively controversial issue that has wound about Wikinews for all the years I've been here (and presumably years before I arrived). I will try to write up a description of the history from my perspective (if I can find the time; I really will try); I think perhaps I'll put that on your user talk page, rather than here. --Pi zero (talk) 12:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
(Or maybe I'll put it here after all; it seems it shouldn't be separated from the start of the conversation, so if I do decide to put it on your talk page I'd need to bring the above remarks with it.) --Pi zero (talk) 13:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The world needs something, I think. The minefield you mentioned may be why Jimmy Wales decided to launch WikiTribune as a project completely separate from the Wikimedia foundation. The description I've seen so far of WikiTribune seems far too restricted to address the need I see -- and what I think should be possible. However, it may be easier to launch a completely separate project than grow either Wikinews or WikiTribune to meet that need.  ???
In any event, we need a free and open discussion of this someplace, and I think that a "Birds of a Feather" session at Wikimania 2017 should be a good place for a face-to-face encounter on this.
If you'd like to edit my draft submission for Wikimania 2017, you can do so at Submissions/Building Wikinews into the premier news site worldwide
Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
@DavidMCEddy: I have no particular reason to think Jimmy Wales has a clue about the minefield. I have never seen him show any deep understanding of news, nor of Wikinews particularly. He certainly didn't come here to discuss the Wikitribune concept, which I suspect is a step backward from Wikinews in some important ways as he failed to take advantage of available in-house wisdom. I'm not crazy enough to think Wikinews is perfect, and I also don't envision some sort of citizen-journalism monoculture — I'm happy to find room in the world for a variety of different thing being tried. That is not to say he isn't stepping in the middle of... at this point, the "minefield" metaphor no longer works, I'm thinking of something more like stepping squarely into the middle of a large cow pat. I've heard his plan for wikitribune is making belated use of something described to him ten years ago by a proponent of an alternative vision for Wikinews — though I've also heard some pretty pessimistic predictions from that party about wikitribune; so it seems that folks with different philosophies for Wikinews share a dim view of wikitribune.

Alas, I don't think there's any way I could be there. I don't have a passport; at the time of 9/11 I had already let it lapse, and once 9/11 happened I resented the police state GWB was creating and wasn't at all enthusiastic about dealing with it to renew my passport. So my heart isn't really into trying to renew my passport now; and I'm not at all sure it could happen before August anyway. Plus, I see the new Code of Conduct that the WMF is forcing on the community, and feel about it much way I do about GWB's police state; that makes it less likely I would ever attend a Wikimania now even if they held another one in my back yard (the greater Boston area is within commuting distance for me). --Pi zero (talk) 15:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Pi zero: In my judgment, corruption grows to consume the available money. And "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants," according to former Justice Brandeis.
Research cited in my proposal for a "Birds of a Feather" session on this at Wikimania 2017 indicates that politicians tend to be most responsive when the service area of a leading news source matches the politicians' jurisdiction.
I think there is an opportunity to build such a web platform that could develop the following that Google and Wikipedia have today.
I think Wikinews could be that platform if we could get the organizational politics aligned.
I'd be pleased to have your reactions to my Wikimania session proposal and the material I've posted under v:Category:Freedom and abundance, especially v:Winning the War on Terror -- even if you do not attend.
'I could also use your help in getting input from other key people in Wikinews. Moreover, if the conference room has a reasonable Internet connection, we could open that session to virtual attendees.' I have a small Webex subscription for up to 8 participants. With that, I should be able to allow you to attend virtually without leaving your home.
I share your concern about GWB's police state. This conference will be in Montreal. I'm not sure, but you may not need a passport to go there from Boston -- though you would need, e.g., a MA driver's license.
DavidMCEddy (talk) 00:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Shared Public StarBucks IP[edit]

Hey, Heads up just wanted to say > is a shared IP address - Starbucks / Dufferin and Steeles.

Regards, iDM

I do not see what is the problem with that.
acagastya 20:27, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Possible Troll and impersonating Wikipedia editors. (user:Oshwah) specially. Just giving you heads up that its a public IP.
Possible. But not necessarily. Couple of years ago, a shared IP wrote 20+ articles, writing one OR as well. Not all IPs are vandals.
acagastya 20:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Category for "Supreme Court of India and "Indian Supreme Court hearings"[edit]

I think there are enough articles to populate those categories. So, shall we add this in the to-do list?
acagastya 10:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Pi zero cited on the Spanish-language Wikinews "Water cooler"[edit]

@Pi zero: I recently mentioned your comments about Serbian Wikinews and Voice of America in the Spanish-language Wikinews: I found some comments to the effect that some of their contributors were lifting articles straight from VoA. I paraphrased your comments, suggesting they may want to be careful about doing that. DavidMCEddy (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

@DavidMCEddy: Interesting. (Btw, it looks like you've got a typo there; you had [[Usarior:Pi zero]], which is a redlink, rather than [[Usario:Pi zero]].) --Pi zero (talk) 22:01, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@Pi zero: Excuse me: It was "Usuario:Pi zero", which is a page for you on that Wiki, which you've never created. I just changed it to [[:en:User:Pi zero|Usuarior:Pi zero]], so it comes to your en.wikinews page.
@DavidMCEddy: Heh. We both made typos. You had an extra "r", and above I missed a "u"; the word we were both trying for is "Usuario". It's perfectly reasonable to link to my English Wikinews page; I did create my user page there, about four years ago, but it's a soft redirect to my English Wikinews page. es:Usuario:Pi zero. --Pi zero (talk) 00:16, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Translated quote[edit]

By "breaking", do you mean the template is not working properly for some languages or it breaks the link with translated quote template?
acagastya 08:21, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

I mean, the template did not do what it was supposed to do do. There are two differences between the templates: the parameters are in a different order, and the {{translated quote}} template adds quotation marks that the {{translation note}} template does not. --Pi zero (talk) 10:41, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
I know the order is different, and I tackled that problem. For double quotes, you could have tweaked the template.
acagastya 17:42, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
I could have. I admit, I was in a hurry, and the easiest way to fix the problem was simply to restore the older version. That said, I still don't really understand why you want the two coded independently. Defining {{translated quote}} in terms of {{translation note}} seems like the simplest solution to me. What am I missing? --Pi zero (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
For languages like Arabic, Persian, Urdu and Hebrew, the direction should be rtl. the simplest way to add it was to remove the dependency of the other template. (the language name was not showing when I tried)
acagastya 18:13, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
@Acagastya: You mean, process the additional parameter locally rather than pass it through to the other template? (If that's it, there's another way to do that...) --Pi zero (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
@Acagastya: I tried something different with the template. Does it solve the problem you were observing? --Pi zero (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2017 (UTC)