Unmasking the Truth Behind IDF Reports – The World Must Recognize the Brutal Reality

Another case of someone running away because someone made a good arguement against them. @004bvan:

• "Israel does something Hamas has never done. Only target the terrorists."* - Can you provide evidence that Hamas members raped a wife and killed a child? These are serious allegations and require substantiated proof. Furthermore, reports and evidence show that Israeli airstrikes have resulted in numerous civilian casualties, suggesting a less discriminative approach than claimed.

• "Hamas doesn't report if a hostage dies and Israel generally doesn't publicly release where the dead hostages they find were found."* - The lack of public reporting doesn’t necessarily imply accuracy or transparency. Independent investigations and reports from international organizations should be considered for a more comprehensive understanding.

• "Hamas is targeting Hamas run hospitals because they believe that Hamas is in the hospital. That is ludicrous. Hamas isn't (usually) targeting itself."* - This statement is confusing. If hospitals are being targeted due to suspected militant presence, it still results in significant civilian harm and infrastructure destruction, which is unacceptable.

• "Palestine has existed long before 1932" - Under what leader? What form of government? If this was really a state back then you would be able to answer that."* - Palestine existed as a geographical and cultural entity long before modern state definitions. Historical records show Palestinian passports and governance in various forms, even if not fitting the modern concept of a state.

• "Actually, I disagree but I think a reasonable case could be made. Fine. Who was before Ahmad Shukeiri in 1964 then?"* - Leadership in the region has varied historically, and the concept of nation-states is relatively modern. Palestinian identity and presence have been longstanding.

• "Even if this were true, these civilians were just trying to live their life. And what about a 9 month old who doesn't know what war or land is, who was brutally beheaded. Did he deserve it too? How about a 2 year tortured by Hamas in a tunnel?"* - Tragic loss of innocent lives is unacceptable and should be condemned. However, these incidents should not justify collective punishment or the ongoing occupation and displacement of Palestinians.

• "Some are, but I agree not enough."* - The assertion that Gazans are defending themselves from Hamas is not widely supported. Many see Hamas as their resistance against Israeli occupation, despite criticisms of their governance and tactics.

• "Hamas broke through Israel's door, raped his wife, murdered 1 of his children and took the other hostage to be tortured, and then when Israel fought back they were called the terrorists."* - Can you provide clear evidence for these specific claims? The broader historical context involves decades of displacement, occupation, and systemic oppression faced by Palestinians, which fuels resistance.

• "The best way to defend yourself from aggression is to not attack others and provoke aggression in response."* - This perspective ignores the context of occupation and systemic violence faced by Palestinians, contributing to the cycle of resistance and retaliation.

• "If so, every Gazan would be dead. Considering than even according to Hamas only 1.5% of the population has died, this evidently false."* - The water situation in Gaza is dire, with severe restrictions leading to humanitarian crises. The statistics cited do not reflect the chronic hardships and suffering due to the blockade.

• "No one needs 100 liters per day."* - The 100 liters per day standard covers all daily needs, including drinking, cooking, and sanitation. The restricted access often falls short, exacerbating the humanitarian situation.

• "Yeah, unfortunately a lot of the original aid is intercepted by Hamas rather than given to the Gazan people."* - While aid distribution issues exist, the overall blockade and restrictions by Israel significantly contribute to the shortages and suffering in Gaza, and you have made me see Hamas bigger than USA military because of their capability of controlling everything

• "Unless Hamas had taken over the entire neighborhood and no one was there but Hamas."* - This hypothetical doesn’t reflect the reality in Gaza, where densely populated civilian areas are often targeted, leading to high casualties and destruction.

• "Yes. Gaza is much more densely populated than some kibbutz near Gaza. Also, Hamas was more focused on killing civilians than using them as human shields. Also, a 1 hour long massacre is different than an 8 month long fight against terrorism."* - The comparison highlights the disproportionate response and the scale of civilian casualties resulting from Israeli actions.

• "Hamas is attacking Israel because they're Jewish and they think Muslims should own the entire Middle East. Is that not attacking others based on ideology?"* - Hamas’s primary stated goal is to free their land, which they believe was unjustly given away by the UN, USA, and UK after World War II. The broader conflict is about land, rights, and self-determination, not purely religious ideology.

• "Justice has already been had. You know that as long as Israel's existed 70% of the land has gone to a Palestinian state: Jordan."* - This statement misrepresents the situation. Jordan is a separate nation, and Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza still live under occupation or blockade, seeking their own state. Why was Palestine chosen to bear the burden of resettling refugees after World War II? If a part of Germany had been allocated, the dynamics could have been different.

• "Notice the pattern with all of these. These were places that a cowardly government didn't finish the job in and withdrew. If Israel actually keeps fighting rather than running away, it will be fine."* - This approach ignores the human cost and long-term instability from prolonged conflict and occupation. Sustainable peace requires addressing root causes and injustices.

• "Actually, not a majority. And they only have them because around 50% of the country are refugees from European antisemitism."* - While the diverse origins of Israeli citizens are acknowledged, the existence of dual nationality doesn’t negate Palestinians' rights to their land and self-determination. How can refugees claim the land for themselves when the Palestinian people offered refuge and are now facing land theft?

**We Don't run my friend.**

"Can you provide evidence that Hamas members raped a wife and killed a child" - Watch the October 7 footage (much of which was originally published by Hamas) "reports and evidence show that Israeli airstrikes have resulted in numerous civilian casualties" - I already explained that this was because Hamas uses human shields. "lack of public reporting doesn’t necessarily imply accuracy or transparency" - Yes, but it doesn't imply the opposite either. This is my point. "If hospitals are being targeted due to suspected militant presence, it still results in significant civilian harm and infrastructure destruction" - Yes, it does. This is happens when you lock people up for use and human shields and when crazed Gazan civilians (either at the discretion of Hamas or not) disregard Israeli leaflet saying where the bombings will happen and some who intentionally go into those areas for PR. "Palestine existed as a geographical and cultural entity long before modern state definitions. Historical records show Palestinian passports and governance in various forms" - The same can be said of Israel, except even long before any of these "records" are from. "Leadership in the region has varied historically, and the concept of nation-states is relatively modern" - Literally every civilization, whether a tribal village or an empire, has a leader. If it has varied, then name 1 leader. By your definition, a bunch of people coming to a place under a different government can be retroactively classified as a state. "these incidents should not justify collective punishment or the ongoing occupation and displacement of Palestinians" - you say incident. Incident would be if it was a mistake or a one of event, not the groups stated purposes and something done to thousands. There is little to no collective punishment (outside of the unavoidable fact that people do unfortunately die in wars and when terrorists commit war crimes against their own people their own people die). Also, you can't "occupy" your own territory. The modern day states of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon (and the terrorist occupied parts of Gaza and West Bank) as well as parts of Syria and Egypt are all part of Israel (this was Britain's original plan, until the Arab's murdered hundreds of jews in riots and well as nearly assasinating Churchill over it in the 1920s). After those event, Britain said that they would give 45% of the land for a palestinian state Jordan (still has a 90% palestinian population). Then, a plan was offered where only 1/4 of the modern state of israel (and only 3% of the original area) was to be given to a jewish state. The jews accepted, the arabs refused. Then, during/right after WW2, out of the remaining 55% of the land, 40% was made into lebanon and parts were given to Egypt and Syria. This left with 15% of the land. In 1947, only half was given to jews (which the arabs still rejected). The arabs invaded, and got pushed out (a bit), with Israel winding up with about 10% of their rightful land. After the Six Day war, they got to nearly 50%, but then international pressure forced them back to 15%. Then, to try to satifisy the arab's (who the KGB were now slowly inventing the term Palestinian for) withdraw from Gaza and from the Arab parts of the west bank. Instead of building a state, they kept attacking Israel. Read more at https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/AboutIsrael/history/Pages/History-Israel-Timeline.aspx "Many see Hamas as their resistance against Israeli occupation" - because they've been indoctornated. Many Gazan civilians committed acts of terrorism on October 7 to (see https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/28/like-sadistic-nazis-secret-hamas-papers-reveal-step-by-step-action-plan-for-oct-7/), but there a few who truly are innocent and trying to expel Hamas. "Can you provide clear evidence for these specific claims" - Watch the October 7 footage. This is the most true expression of Hamas. Watch it all. If you actually take in anything I say here, watch it. Actually watch it. I am certain 90% of people supporting Hamas would not if they saw it. "displacement, occupation, and systemic oppression faced by Palestinians" - The only people displaced were Israelis. It's Israeli land. Palestinians are not oppressed, just the terrorists amongst them. The whole Nakba is nonsense. The Arabs left because the Arab armies were going to kill everyone and they didn't want to be there and then they planned to return. Then, having fled for what they thought we be a quick genocide of the jews, were now refugees. "chronic hardships and suffering due to the blockade" - This ignores a simple fact. Anyone not getting water 18 to 20 days will be dead. Therefore, this claim is clearly not true. "The restricted access often falls short" - even with that, why would anyone need 100 liters per day. Even in California (a developed area without a war), they claim people only need 55 liters per day (https://medium.com/rocklinca/how-many-gallons-of-freshwater-do-we-use-per-day-7987edf6b1bb) far less than the 80 liters they get. "aid distribution issues exist" This as big an understatement as saying of an occupation that a "land distribution issue exists". An aid distribution issue would be like if some places got much more than they needed or wanted and others didn't get enough. A terror organization hijacking the aid for its civilians is different. "you have made me see Hamas bigger than USA military because of their capability of controlling everything" - A bunch of guys with guns have control over a civilian without a gun. If the US military attacked Hamas whenever they tried to intercept the aid, the aid issue would stop. "This hypothetical doesn’t reflect the reality in Gaza" - Yes, which is why Israel does not bomb whole Gazan neighborhoods "The comparison highlights the disproportionate response" - No. A targeted operation to kill disguised terorrists who have emebedded themselves for 19 years is more difficult than randomly shooting everyone in sight. "Hamas’s primary stated goal is to free their land" - No, they're primary goal is kill people. These group include the Jews and Israelis (even the Muslim/Palestinian ones) and in the future Western people as well. This quote from there founding charter illustrates that perfectly. What normal organization's goal is to "fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: O’ Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him," "Jordan is a separate nation" - That's the point. All these Palestinians have chosen to remain in Israel. They could go to Jordan. This is an option Israelis don't have, as they would be killed. "If a part of Germany had been allocated, the dynamics could have been different" - Why Germany? This would be like saying that Ukraine doesn't have reasonable right to be in their own land because some Russians live there too, so Mexico should have to give part of there land and only there will Ukrainian be allowed to live, but not in actual Ukraine. That's ludicrous and even you know it. "Why was Palestine chosen to bear the burden of resettling refugees after World War II" - Because if you a refugee from a place it is reasonable once you are able to go back (if you want to) to be allowed back. "This approach ignores the human cost and long-term instability from prolonged conflict and occupation" - You don't have a conflict if you eliminate the terrorists (the opponents). You can't have a conflict with nothing. If you eliminate the something trying to kill you rather than running away from, there's no conflict and no instability (and as such no need for contuing liberation). "the existence of dual nationality doesn’t negate Palestinians' rights" - It doesn't. I just said it didn't make Israel not really a state. Those aren't (except for according to a few terrorists) mutually exclusive. "the Palestinian people offered refuge" - How did they offer refugee? By attacking the new state? By driving Israelis out of the land that was suppossed to be shared? By starting mobs to kill innocent civilian jews? Maybe by deporting them? I'm confused. Also, land theft would involve theft. Legally buying land (which is how the jews got most of modern Israel) is not theft. And, it turns out that if you occupy 90% of a nations rightful land and attack them, when they win they might take 5% of it back. That's not unreasonable. "We Don't run my friend" - Between staying between level 2-4 at most times in Graham's hierarchy of disagreement, not running away, and not getting insanely emotional, you are doing better than 90-95% of people who hold your view. I'll give you that. @004van: