Unmasking the Truth Behind IDF Reports – The World Must Recognize the Brutal Reality

The recent reports by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) about discovering a tunnel in a child's bedroom in Rafah, supposedly used by Hamas, and the subsequent killing of militants near a school, should be viewed with deep skepticism. These narratives, often disseminated by the IDF, appear to be strategic attempts to sugarcoat their actions and present themselves as defenders of innocence. However, the reality is far from what these reports suggest.

The world must recognize the brutal truth: the IDF has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians, including women, children, and the elderly. Their operations, often justified under the guise of security measures, have led to widespread suffering and loss of innocent lives. Reports of IDF actions frequently overlook or minimize these atrocities, painting a misleading picture of innocence.

It is crucial that the global community sees through these deceptions. The true victims of this conflict are not the militants but the countless civilians who endure daily violence, terror, and displacement. The IDF's actions should not be sanitized or excused; they must be condemned for the barbarity and inhumanity inflicted upon innocent people.

Fortunately, there is a growing awareness worldwide of these injustices. The global community is beginning to see the IDF for what they truly are: perpetrators of violence against vulnerable populations. It is imperative to continue shedding light on these truths and advocating for justice and accountability.

The world must stand in solidarity with the victims and demand an end to the bloodshed. It is only through collective action and unwavering commitment to human rights that we can hope to bring about meaningful change and hold those responsible accountable for their actions.

"appear to be strategic attempts to sugarcoat their actions and present themselves as defenders of innocence" - So, by fighting the enemy and saying they shouldn't use child's bedroom's for terror tunnels, this is bad? "the IDF has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians" - Any idea why? Because Hamas does things like hiding in children's bedrooms. "often justified under the guise of security measures" - In other words, they killed terrorists, under the "guise" of them being at war with said terrorists. "have led to widespread suffering and loss of innocent live" - An unfortunate truth of every war. "The true victims of this conflict are not the militants but the countless civilians who endure daily violence, terror, and displacement" - Indeed the true victims are those killed on October 7 in the terror attacks and those Gazan civilians (some of whom who are innocent) that Hamas caused to be killed. Agree with you there. "Reports of IDF actions frequently overlook or minimize these atrocities" - You mean the non-existent ones. Hard to not overlook something that doesn't exist. "painting a misleading picture of innocence" - So the people who are guilty are the ones who got attacked and are fighting against terrorists, not the people who are terrorist and kill civilians on every side. "IDF's actions should not be sanitized or excused" - No, they should be applauded. "they must be condemned for the barbarity and inhumanity inflicted upon innocent people" - Unless you mean Hamas, this is a blatant lie not supported by facts "there is a growing awareness worldwide of these injustices" - Yes, there are more people kidnapping heads of schools of fake war crimes on college campuses. Well that's the best thing that ever happened. "IDF for what they truly are: perpetrators of violence against vulnerable populations" - The terrorists aren't that vulnerable. "It is imperative to continue shedding light on these truths and advocating for justice and accountability" - For Hamas "The world must stand in solidarity with the victims" of October 7 "demand an end to the bloodshed" - This need never have started if terrorists didn't come and kill thousands. "It is only through collective action and unwavering commitment to human rights that we can hope to bring about meaningful change and hold those responsible accountable for their actions" - which is why we must, together, condemn and defund Hamas. @004bvan:

First of all, there is no evidence that Hamas is hiding in children’s bedrooms. This claim is often used as a justification for the actions of the IDF. Secondly, the IDF has bombed hospitals. Were there any Hamas operatives in those hospitals? They have also bombed refugee camps. Is there evidence that Hamas groups were there?

You say they kill terrorists, and by terrorists, you mean Hamas, right? But they’ve been collectively punishing the Gazan people for two decades, even before Hamas was there. This collective punishment has created immense suffering for the civilian population, turning daily life into a struggle for survival. Hamas emerged as a resistance movement to the Israeli invasion and the atrocities committed against their land and people.

You argue that civilian casualties are an unfortunate reality of war, but you fail to address the targeted gassing of civilians. More than 40,000 people have been killed, most of whom are children and women, not Hamas operatives.

You claimed there are no existing atrocities, which is surprising. It seems like you’re only looking at pro-Israeli news. Have you ever looked at the pro-Palestinian perspective? I’ve seen videos and media from both sides, and many of the pro-Israeli claims don’t hold up. For instance, they claimed children were beheaded, but where are the photos, the footage, the videos? Why haven’t they shown them? On the other hand, I’ve seen with my own eyes the beheaded babies in the Rafah refugee camp. The evidence of these atrocities is real and undeniable.

You are blaming people who are fighting for their land and labeling them as terrorists. The people in Gaza are defending their homes and their lives against ongoing aggression and occupation. It’s important to recognize their right to resist and not simply dismiss them as terrorists. The real issue here is the collective punishment and the disproportionate response that affects countless innocent civilians, not just those involved in the conflict.

Finally, if Hamas members were hiding in a hospital in Tel Aviv or in a children’s bedroom in Israel, would the Israeli military bomb the entire neighborhood to target those individuals? It’s highly unlikely. The methods and decisions in conflict zones need to be scrutinized for fairness and humanity.

Understanding these dynamics is crucial for any meaningful dialogue about peace and justice. We must focus on ending the oppression and finding paths to genuine peace and justice.

"there is no evidence that Hamas is hiding in children’s bedrooms. This claim is often used as a justification for the actions of the IDF" - There's more evidence for it than there is when Hamas says that Israel strikes a school or something. "Were there any Hamas operatives in those hospitals" - Yes, many. Hospitals and schools (and somewhat refugee camps) tend to have the most Hamas militants. "They have also bombed refugee camps. Is there evidence that Hamas groups were there?" - Yes. How could most hostages rescued have been held by Hamas there then, if nothing else? "You say they kill terrorists, and by terrorists, you mean Hamas, right" - Correct. "they’ve been collectively punishing the Gazan people for two decades, even before Hamas was there" - No, they haven't. But, it turns out that when you hide in a hospital and attack civilians (on both sides) from a hospital, sometimes innocents get killed when trying to get you out of that hospital. "This collective punishment has created immense suffering for the civilian population, turning daily life into a struggle for survival" - Unfortunately, yes, Hamas forcing civilians to be human shields has made life a struggle for survival. "Hamas emerged as a resistance movement to the Israeli invasion" - Israel withdrew in 2006, before Hamas existed. Then, Hamas attacked them in 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021, and then finally in 2023. At some point, they had enough and started liberating Gaza. You mixed up time here. "you fail to address the targeted gassing of civilians" - What targetted gassing. Haven't heard of this. "More than 40,000 people have been killed, most of whom are children and women, not Hamas operatives." - Even according to Hamas that many people haven't been killed. Also, Hamas inflates it's civilian casualties for PR. Also, Hamas disguises themselves as women and children. "You claimed there are no existing atrocities" - No, I stated a fact obvious to everyone not a far-left communist or a Muslim Jihadist. "Have you ever looked at the pro-Palestinian perspective" - Yes. I then found out that many of there claims were nonsense. Like for example Hamas blamed Israel for striking a hospital and killing 500, when in fact they intentionally struck there own hospital for PR. "they claimed children were beheaded, but where are the photos, the footage, the videos" - Look up the October 7 footage. Watch it in full, please. Then you'll understand. "I’ve seen with my own eyes the beheaded babies in the Rafah refugee camp" - Those babies, at least many of them, were actually beheading my Hamas for PR. And also Rafah is a city, not a refugee camp. Eilat is just as much of an Israeli refugee camp. "You are blaming people who are fighting for their land and labeling them as terrorists" - People who murder civilians brutally on every side are terrorists. Also, its not their land. There was never a state called Palestine. Tell me, who was the leader of this Palestine before Arafat? "The people in Gaza are defending their homes and their lives against ongoing aggression and occupation" - Some of them are defending themselves from Hamas. Not enough. "It’s important to recognize their right to resist and not simply dismiss them as terrorists" - They're right to resist ends at rape, murder, and torture. "The real issue here is the collective punishment and the disproportionate response that affects countless innocent civilians" - Heres an unfortunate fact. The people of Gaza democratically elected Hamas. That means that (most of them) support Hamas. The Hamas terrorist does the bidding of the average Gazan. While I really don't think there is that much collective punishment, it's hardly unreasonable. Also, the response is not disproportionate. If you attack someone, they fight back. "if Hamas members were hiding in a hospital in Tel Aviv or in a children’s bedroom in Israel, would the Israeli military bomb the entire neighborhood to target those individuals" - Maybe. The IDF did accidently kill some Israelis when trying to drive Hamas out of it's territory on October 7. But, also, consider this. As a democracy (like all democracies), the Israeli government cares more about what they're people think then what Gazan terrorists do. That's just how democracy works. "The methods and decisions in conflict zones need to be scrutinized for fairness and humanity" - Don't you think Israel does that? Do you know how many operations they've aborted to due risk to a few civilians? Countless. You just don't hear about them because they are less likely to get people to click on them. "Understanding these dynamics is crucial for any meaningful dialogue about peace and justice" - Yes, understanding why a terrorist organization is wrong and democracy is right isn't too hard though. Do you also think this about Al-Qaeda, that theyre innocent freedom fighters? ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and Hamas are the same with slightly different targets. "We must focus on ending the oppression and finding paths to genuine peace and justice" - The only way to do so is by eliminateing Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and all other terror groups, as well as liberating Iran and returning the power back to the people of Iran. @004bvan:

First of all, you stated that Hamas hides in refugee camps, hospitals, and schools. You mentioned that most hostages rescued were held by Hamas in these locations. If this were true, the Israeli bombings on these refugee camps would have resulted in many Israeli hostages being killed. However, there haven't been reports of dead Israeli hostages in these bombed locations.

You also mentioned that Hamas hides in hospitals, and sometimes innocent people get killed in these attacks. However, they are not targeting hospitals for sympathy; they are targeting them because they believe Hamas militants are there.

I was really surprised when you said it is not their land and that there was never a state called Palestine. Palestine has existed long before 1932, and there is historical evidence of Palestinian passports from that time. Additionally, there was a Palestinian leader before Arafat named Yahya Hammouda.

You mentioned that some Gazans are defending themselves from Hamas, but no one is defending themselves from Hamas. The people of Gaza see Hamas as their resistance and their only way to end their suffering.

You said the right to resist ends at rape, murder, and torture. That's true, but why are Israelis there in the first place to get murdered, raped, or tortured? It’s not their place; it’s not their land. It’s like knocking on your neighbor's door, attacking him, and then calling him a terrorist when he fights back.

You stated that most people in Gaza democratically elected Hamas, implying they support Hamas. Yes, they do, because they see it as their only way to defend themselves against Israeli aggression.

When you said there isn’t much collective punishment, that’s a huge statement. In Gaza, people get water every 18 to 20 days, and according to international laws, every person should have at least 100 liters during these days. Israel provides only 80 liters. Isn’t that collective punishment?

You also claimed the response isn’t disproportionate. If Hamas members were hiding in Israel, Israel would never bomb an entire neighborhood. They would surgically remove these Hamas members. They can’t just bomb neighborhoods in other parts of the world as they do in Gaza, and the governments don’t hold them accountable, though the people around the world do.

You said the IDF accidentally killed some Israelis while trying to drive Hamas out of the territory on October 7th. They may have killed 1 or 2 Israelis, but not 40,000 by accident. This comparison is not valid.

No, I don't think the same about Al-Qaeda, because Al-Qaeda are not defending themselves. They are attacking other people based on their ideology.

You said justice is achieved by eliminating Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, and other groups, and then liberating Iran and returning power to the people. Eliminating these groups might bring justice and freedom for Israeli people and those in power, but it won't bring justice for the Palestinians. Historically, eliminating resistance groups often leads to occupation and control over the land's wealth, as seen in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine.

You said there is no Palestine, and I counter that there is no Israel and no Israeli people. Most people in Israel are European, holding European passports and property in various European countries. Many Israeli leaders have fake names. Did you know about this?

Understanding these dynamics is crucial for any meaningful dialogue about peace and justice. We must focus on ending the oppression and finding paths to genuine peace and justice.

"the Israeli bombings on these refugee camps would have resulted in many Israeli hostages being killed" - No, because Israel does something Hamas has never done. Only target the terrorists. "there haven't been reports of dead Israeli hostages in these bombed locations" - Hamas doesn't report if a hostage dies and Israel generally doesn't publicly release where the dead hostages they find were found. "they are not targeting hospitals for sympathy; they are targeting them because they believe Hamas militants are there" - Hamas is targeting Hamas run hospitals because they believe that Hamas is in the hospital. That is ludicrous. Hamas isn't (usually) targeting itself. "Palestine has existed long before 1932" - Under what leader? What form of government? If this was really a state back then you would be able to answer that. "there was a Palestinian leader before Arafat named Yahya Hammouda" - Actually, I disagree but I think a reasonable case could be made. Fine. Who was before Ahmad Shukeiri in 1964 then? "It’s not their place; it’s not their land" - Even if this were true, these civilians were just trying to live there life. And what about a 9 month old who doesn't know what war or land is, who was brutally beheaded. Did he deserve it too? How about a 2 year tortured by Hamas in a tunnel? "no one is defending themselves from Hamas" - Some are, but I agree not enough. "It’s like knocking on your neighbor's door, attacking him, and then calling him a terrorist when he fights back" - Yeah, it is. Hamas broke through Israels door, raped his wife, murdered 1 of his children and took the other hostage to be tortured, and then when Israel fought back they were called the terrorists. Apt description. "Yes, they do, because they see it as their only way to defend themselves against Israeli aggression" - The best way to defend yourself from agression is too not attack others and provoke agression in response. "people get water every 18 to 20 days" - If so, every Gazan would be dead. Considering than even according to Hamas only 1.5% of the population has died, this evidently false. "every person should have at least 100 liters during these days" - No one needs 100 liters per day. "Israel provides only 80 liters" - Yeah, unfortunately a lot of the original aid is intercepted by hamas rather than given to the Gazan people. "If Hamas members were hiding in Israel, Israel would never bomb an entire neighborhood" - Unless Hamas had taken over the entire neighborhood and no one was there but Hamas. "They may have killed 1 or 2 Israelis, but not 40,000 by accident. This comparison is not valid" - Yes. Gaza is much more densly populated than some kibbutz near Gaza. Also, Hamas was more focused on killing civilians than using them as human shields. Also, a 1 hour long massacre is different than an 8 month long fight against terrorism. "because Al-Qaeda are not defending themselves. They are attacking other people based on their ideology" - Hamas is attacking Israel because they're Jewish and they think Muslim's should own the entire Middle East. Is that not attacking others based on ideology? "it won't bring justice for the Palestinians" - Justice has already been had. You know that as long as Israel's existed 70% of the land has gone to a Palestinian state:Jordan. Jordan is 90% Palestinian and was originally founded with the idea that the half called Israel would be a Jewish state and the half called Jordan (originally transjordan) would be a Muslim state. "eliminating resistance groups often leads to occupation and control over the land's wealth, as seen in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine" - Notice the pattern with all of these. These were places that a cowardly government didn't finish the job in and withdrew. If Israel actually keeps fighting rather than running away, it will be fine. "Most people in Israel are European, holding European passports and property in various European countries" - Actually, not a majority. And they only have them because around 50% of the country are refugess from European antisemitism. "Many Israeli leaders have fake names" - That's unrelated. What someone decides to name themselves does not make their country not a country. "Did you know about this" - Yes, I've done my research. You on the other hand... @004bvan:

Another case of someone running away because someone made a good arguement against them. @004bvan:

• "Israel does something Hamas has never done. Only target the terrorists."* - Can you provide evidence that Hamas members raped a wife and killed a child? These are serious allegations and require substantiated proof. Furthermore, reports and evidence show that Israeli airstrikes have resulted in numerous civilian casualties, suggesting a less discriminative approach than claimed.

• "Hamas doesn't report if a hostage dies and Israel generally doesn't publicly release where the dead hostages they find were found."* - The lack of public reporting doesn’t necessarily imply accuracy or transparency. Independent investigations and reports from international organizations should be considered for a more comprehensive understanding.

• "Hamas is targeting Hamas run hospitals because they believe that Hamas is in the hospital. That is ludicrous. Hamas isn't (usually) targeting itself."* - This statement is confusing. If hospitals are being targeted due to suspected militant presence, it still results in significant civilian harm and infrastructure destruction, which is unacceptable.

• "Palestine has existed long before 1932" - Under what leader? What form of government? If this was really a state back then you would be able to answer that."* - Palestine existed as a geographical and cultural entity long before modern state definitions. Historical records show Palestinian passports and governance in various forms, even if not fitting the modern concept of a state.

• "Actually, I disagree but I think a reasonable case could be made. Fine. Who was before Ahmad Shukeiri in 1964 then?"* - Leadership in the region has varied historically, and the concept of nation-states is relatively modern. Palestinian identity and presence have been longstanding.

• "Even if this were true, these civilians were just trying to live their life. And what about a 9 month old who doesn't know what war or land is, who was brutally beheaded. Did he deserve it too? How about a 2 year tortured by Hamas in a tunnel?"* - Tragic loss of innocent lives is unacceptable and should be condemned. However, these incidents should not justify collective punishment or the ongoing occupation and displacement of Palestinians.

• "Some are, but I agree not enough."* - The assertion that Gazans are defending themselves from Hamas is not widely supported. Many see Hamas as their resistance against Israeli occupation, despite criticisms of their governance and tactics.

• "Hamas broke through Israel's door, raped his wife, murdered 1 of his children and took the other hostage to be tortured, and then when Israel fought back they were called the terrorists."* - Can you provide clear evidence for these specific claims? The broader historical context involves decades of displacement, occupation, and systemic oppression faced by Palestinians, which fuels resistance.

• "The best way to defend yourself from aggression is to not attack others and provoke aggression in response."* - This perspective ignores the context of occupation and systemic violence faced by Palestinians, contributing to the cycle of resistance and retaliation.

• "If so, every Gazan would be dead. Considering than even according to Hamas only 1.5% of the population has died, this evidently false."* - The water situation in Gaza is dire, with severe restrictions leading to humanitarian crises. The statistics cited do not reflect the chronic hardships and suffering due to the blockade.

• "No one needs 100 liters per day."* - The 100 liters per day standard covers all daily needs, including drinking, cooking, and sanitation. The restricted access often falls short, exacerbating the humanitarian situation.

• "Yeah, unfortunately a lot of the original aid is intercepted by Hamas rather than given to the Gazan people."* - While aid distribution issues exist, the overall blockade and restrictions by Israel significantly contribute to the shortages and suffering in Gaza, and you have made me see Hamas bigger than USA military because of their capability of controlling everything

• "Unless Hamas had taken over the entire neighborhood and no one was there but Hamas."* - This hypothetical doesn’t reflect the reality in Gaza, where densely populated civilian areas are often targeted, leading to high casualties and destruction.

• "Yes. Gaza is much more densely populated than some kibbutz near Gaza. Also, Hamas was more focused on killing civilians than using them as human shields. Also, a 1 hour long massacre is different than an 8 month long fight against terrorism."* - The comparison highlights the disproportionate response and the scale of civilian casualties resulting from Israeli actions.

• "Hamas is attacking Israel because they're Jewish and they think Muslims should own the entire Middle East. Is that not attacking others based on ideology?"* - Hamas’s primary stated goal is to free their land, which they believe was unjustly given away by the UN, USA, and UK after World War II. The broader conflict is about land, rights, and self-determination, not purely religious ideology.

• "Justice has already been had. You know that as long as Israel's existed 70% of the land has gone to a Palestinian state: Jordan."* - This statement misrepresents the situation. Jordan is a separate nation, and Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza still live under occupation or blockade, seeking their own state. Why was Palestine chosen to bear the burden of resettling refugees after World War II? If a part of Germany had been allocated, the dynamics could have been different.

• "Notice the pattern with all of these. These were places that a cowardly government didn't finish the job in and withdrew. If Israel actually keeps fighting rather than running away, it will be fine."* - This approach ignores the human cost and long-term instability from prolonged conflict and occupation. Sustainable peace requires addressing root causes and injustices.

• "Actually, not a majority. And they only have them because around 50% of the country are refugees from European antisemitism."* - While the diverse origins of Israeli citizens are acknowledged, the existence of dual nationality doesn’t negate Palestinians' rights to their land and self-determination. How can refugees claim the land for themselves when the Palestinian people offered refuge and are now facing land theft?

**We Don't run my friend.**

"Can you provide evidence that Hamas members raped a wife and killed a child" - Watch the October 7 footage (much of which was originally published by Hamas) "reports and evidence show that Israeli airstrikes have resulted in numerous civilian casualties" - I already explained that this was because Hamas uses human shields. "lack of public reporting doesn’t necessarily imply accuracy or transparency" - Yes, but it doesn't imply the opposite either. This is my point. "If hospitals are being targeted due to suspected militant presence, it still results in significant civilian harm and infrastructure destruction" - Yes, it does. This is happens when you lock people up for use and human shields and when crazed Gazan civilians (either at the discretion of Hamas or not) disregard Israeli leaflet saying where the bombings will happen and some who intentionally go into those areas for PR. "Palestine existed as a geographical and cultural entity long before modern state definitions. Historical records show Palestinian passports and governance in various forms" - The same can be said of Israel, except even long before any of these "records" are from. "Leadership in the region has varied historically, and the concept of nation-states is relatively modern" - Literally every civilization, whether a tribal village or an empire, has a leader. If it has varied, then name 1 leader. By your definition, a bunch of people coming to a place under a different government can be retroactively classified as a state. "these incidents should not justify collective punishment or the ongoing occupation and displacement of Palestinians" - you say incident. Incident would be if it was a mistake or a one of event, not the groups stated purposes and something done to thousands. There is little to no collective punishment (outside of the unavoidable fact that people do unfortunately die in wars and when terrorists commit war crimes against their own people their own people die). Also, you can't "occupy" your own territory. The modern day states of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon (and the terrorist occupied parts of Gaza and West Bank) as well as parts of Syria and Egypt are all part of Israel (this was Britain's original plan, until the Arab's murdered hundreds of jews in riots and well as nearly assasinating Churchill over it in the 1920s). After those event, Britain said that they would give 45% of the land for a palestinian state Jordan (still has a 90% palestinian population). Then, a plan was offered where only 1/4 of the modern state of israel (and only 3% of the original area) was to be given to a jewish state. The jews accepted, the arabs refused. Then, during/right after WW2, out of the remaining 55% of the land, 40% was made into lebanon and parts were given to Egypt and Syria. This left with 15% of the land. In 1947, only half was given to jews (which the arabs still rejected). The arabs invaded, and got pushed out (a bit), with Israel winding up with about 10% of their rightful land. After the Six Day war, they got to nearly 50%, but then international pressure forced them back to 15%. Then, to try to satifisy the arab's (who the KGB were now slowly inventing the term Palestinian for) withdraw from Gaza and from the Arab parts of the west bank. Instead of building a state, they kept attacking Israel. Read more at https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/AboutIsrael/history/Pages/History-Israel-Timeline.aspx "Many see Hamas as their resistance against Israeli occupation" - because they've been indoctornated. Many Gazan civilians committed acts of terrorism on October 7 to (see https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/28/like-sadistic-nazis-secret-hamas-papers-reveal-step-by-step-action-plan-for-oct-7/), but there a few who truly are innocent and trying to expel Hamas. "Can you provide clear evidence for these specific claims" - Watch the October 7 footage. This is the most true expression of Hamas. Watch it all. If you actually take in anything I say here, watch it. Actually watch it. I am certain 90% of people supporting Hamas would not if they saw it. "displacement, occupation, and systemic oppression faced by Palestinians" - The only people displaced were Israelis. It's Israeli land. Palestinians are not oppressed, just the terrorists amongst them. The whole Nakba is nonsense. The Arabs left because the Arab armies were going to kill everyone and they didn't want to be there and then they planned to return. Then, having fled for what they thought we be a quick genocide of the jews, were now refugees. "chronic hardships and suffering due to the blockade" - This ignores a simple fact. Anyone not getting water 18 to 20 days will be dead. Therefore, this claim is clearly not true. "The restricted access often falls short" - even with that, why would anyone need 100 liters per day. Even in California (a developed area without a war), they claim people only need 55 liters per day (https://medium.com/rocklinca/how-many-gallons-of-freshwater-do-we-use-per-day-7987edf6b1bb) far less than the 80 liters they get. "aid distribution issues exist" This as big an understatement as saying of an occupation that a "land distribution issue exists". An aid distribution issue would be like if some places got much more than they needed or wanted and others didn't get enough. A terror organization hijacking the aid for its civilians is different. "you have made me see Hamas bigger than USA military because of their capability of controlling everything" - A bunch of guys with guns have control over a civilian without a gun. If the US military attacked Hamas whenever they tried to intercept the aid, the aid issue would stop. "This hypothetical doesn’t reflect the reality in Gaza" - Yes, which is why Israel does not bomb whole Gazan neighborhoods "The comparison highlights the disproportionate response" - No. A targeted operation to kill disguised terorrists who have emebedded themselves for 19 years is more difficult than randomly shooting everyone in sight. "Hamas’s primary stated goal is to free their land" - No, they're primary goal is kill people. These group include the Jews and Israelis (even the Muslim/Palestinian ones) and in the future Western people as well. This quote from there founding charter illustrates that perfectly. What normal organization's goal is to "fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: O’ Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him," "Jordan is a separate nation" - That's the point. All these Palestinians have chosen to remain in Israel. They could go to Jordan. This is an option Israelis don't have, as they would be killed. "If a part of Germany had been allocated, the dynamics could have been different" - Why Germany? This would be like saying that Ukraine doesn't have reasonable right to be in their own land because some Russians live there too, so Mexico should have to give part of there land and only there will Ukrainian be allowed to live, but not in actual Ukraine. That's ludicrous and even you know it. "Why was Palestine chosen to bear the burden of resettling refugees after World War II" - Because if you a refugee from a place it is reasonable once you are able to go back (if you want to) to be allowed back. "This approach ignores the human cost and long-term instability from prolonged conflict and occupation" - You don't have a conflict if you eliminate the terrorists (the opponents). You can't have a conflict with nothing. If you eliminate the something trying to kill you rather than running away from, there's no conflict and no instability (and as such no need for contuing liberation). "the existence of dual nationality doesn’t negate Palestinians' rights" - It doesn't. I just said it didn't make Israel not really a state. Those aren't (except for according to a few terrorists) mutually exclusive. "the Palestinian people offered refuge" - How did they offer refugee? By attacking the new state? By driving Israelis out of the land that was suppossed to be shared? By starting mobs to kill innocent civilian jews? Maybe by deporting them? I'm confused. Also, land theft would involve theft. Legally buying land (which is how the jews got most of modern Israel) is not theft. And, it turns out that if you occupy 90% of a nations rightful land and attack them, when they win they might take 5% of it back. That's not unreasonable. "We Don't run my friend" - Between staying between level 2-4 at most times in Graham's hierarchy of disagreement, not running away, and not getting insanely emotional, you are doing better than 90-95% of people who hold your view. I'll give you that. @004van: