Wikinews talk:Neutrality

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Essay or "policy"?[edit]

If it's tagged as an "essay", why is the page considered a "policy"? What's the point of enforcing the page if it's called an "essay"? Shall it be promoted to either a guideline or policy? --George Ho (talk) 07:54, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's an essay atm. The topic of the essay is a policy. --Pi zero (talk) 11:04, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
... I forgot about Wikinews:Neutral point of view. Doh! --George Ho (talk) 07:59, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]


@Pi zero: "America" is a prime example of phrase bias? And you explicitly include it right in a paragraph of incidious metonyms? And you pointed me to this essay, for which you are the only contributor as a source of authority? I already had problems with this essay for its banning of 'homophobia' for example. You may hate how language evolves, but you can't be the language police. A couple of months ago, I almost jokingly asked if something about Matthew Shepard was 'non-medical' use of a word that ends in -phobia. The word, of course, being "homophobia". I didn't object at the time, but made a mental not because you pointed to this essay. At this point I think you aim to ban the word "homophobia" unless it is about a person who has a medically diagnosed irrational fear of gay people, yet harbors no ill will towards them.
I don't know if it is common for logophiles to fight against the evolution of language. Things change. Terrific has origins in "terror" and/or "terrible" but now it means "great".
However, I don't think this is related to what the essay says about "America". America or America. I have abided by the notion it might be ambiguous. The truth is "America" is the short form for United States of America. I do live in the US, and as you predicted I am bitterly biased against your assertion. However, this 'bias' comes with the experience of living in Europe for more than a decade and traveling to five of the seven continents. Everywhere I have been "America" is the shorthand for "United States of America". No one confuses it with Brazil or Canada. And I don't get what the insidious part is.
The failure to give an alternative adjective for something from the US or a noun for a citizen of the US speaks volumes about how this is not part of normal language. Can you imagine meeting someone and telling them "I am Canadian-US"?
I don't know if this was your idea or if someone talked you into it, but 'it ain't right'.

The homophobia thing is well known in journalism. It's explicitly deliberate manipulation. Accusing me of language policing over any of this is nonsense; the non-medical -phobia is in the same class as the term "terrorist", which is a rock-solid taboo on Wikinews.

The America thing has been solid on Wikinews for many years. It's not "just me" by a long shot; I'm just the one who most prominently wrote it down. Over the years, I recall one or two people who got really upset over the suggestion it should be avoided, and what these folks had in common was that they were USians. The first time I encountered someone expressing annoyance over the arrogance of the "America" usage was in the 1988/89 academic year (don't recall which semester); that was the year I first had internet access. --Pi zero (talk) 23:56, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to leave the 'homophobia' for another day. I remember the terrorist debate which I can see as subjective. I know the 'America' thing has been around for a while. When I returned in 2018, I got lectured hard. I don't think I said much. I just complied and used "from the US" and "US <so and so>" instead as best I could.
Were you surprised that USians were the ones who were upset? Stunning. If we told people from the Netherlands we cannot refer to them as Dutch, do you think they'd be upset? Or do you think people from Brazil would be upset about that? Of course, Americans want to be called as such. The equivalency between USA and America is universal and anyone who says otherwise has a political axe to grind which is likely related to the chip on their shoulder. The failure of a suitable noun for a citizen of the US and an adjective to supplant "American" is highly indicative of how dead this notion is. What is the supposed arrogance? Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Chileans, Argentinians don't desire to be called "Americans". When I go to Ukraine I am "Американський" not anything else.
No other wiki-project has this stance on "American" and basing it on your memory of internet in 88/89 is ... well, it's neither here nor there.
The real question is, where is the Wikinews debate where this was decided? I looked for it before my comment on Danny's talk page. Couldn't find it. So why should Wikinews go against the rest of the World on this issue? I need to see some lobbying for how 'offensive' American is, besides being opposed to the foreign policy (which admittedly is very offensive). Cheers, --SVTCobra 01:03, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Congrats if you really got on the Internet that early, but it makes me wonder. Who could you have talked to? Certainly not the World. --SVTCobra 01:06, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]