Talk:Salvadoran director of National Civil Police Mauricio Arriaza Chicas dies in helicopter crash

Notes

Hi @Protoeus

This is interesting story. I am wondering why this happened.

A few recommendations:

• The headline should be in sentence case. "Salvadorian" or "Salvadoran" should be spelled correctly both in the headline and in the text.
• "salvadorian" starts with a capital (first sentence)
• Wikilinks should be added using Template:W for pages in Wikipedia, and normal wikilinks if the page exists on this wiki.
• Names should not be italicized or bolded.
• The first paragraph is missing the date and location. (First paragraph is expected to answer the why, when, where, what, who, and how.)
• "One of the witnesses said that ..." is this exclusive to a news outlet? If so, which? For example, if it was BBC, it would be better to write "One of the witnesses told BBC that ...".
• "cholulteca" should start with a capital letter, have a wikilink, and be part of the first paragraph.
• At the end of the story it may be useful to note who is investigating the cause of the crash.

Would you like to edit to add the above? Please confirm.

I am happy to help, please let me know if this is needed.

Regards, -- Gryllida (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida:, thanks for the recommendations, my native language is Spanish, not English. So I committed some grammatical mistakes. Protoeus (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Protoeus, no problem. Please let me know when you finished editing? Gryllida (talk) 22:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida:, I have already finish fixing this article, now you should only accept it. Protoeus (talk) 23:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Protoeus. Could you please clarify who are the victims? They are named, but no note of their roles or occupations. Gryllida (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida: I will search, there is an article that specifies the occupation of all passengers but doesn’t mention the names. Protoeus (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. Gryllida (talk) 23:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I found them, but my edition was lost, I see if I can put it again. Protoeus (talk) 23:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida:, I have already add the data about the victims. Protoeus (talk) 00:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! What is contact email of the local authorities (police?), I want to ask them for photos if they have any? Gryllida (talk) 00:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I don’t have the E-Mail sadly, maybe you can search on Google those photos and use them as Fair Use. Protoeus (talk) 00:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I was involved in editing. Only another reviewer can publish. @Microchip08 or @Bddpaux or @RockerballAustralia maybe? Gryllida (talk) 23:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Protoeus, could you please clarify what is the source for this? Thank you. Gryllida (talk) 01:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida sadly, I have no source. I just put the information since that is the authority investigating plane crashes in El Salvador. Protoeus (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Gryllida (talk) 05:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Categories

Article needs them. Thanks. BigKrow (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. BigKrow (talk) 22:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Translation help requested

Chicas' title

The ABC article states Chicas' title as "director general of the National Civil Police." Is that equivalent to a police chief? The Australian's article uses "chief" but the same article quotes Bukele calling Chicas "Director." I think we should use Director but want to double check here because I don't speak Spanish and a title change means a headline change as well. —Michael.C.Wright (^Talk/_Published) 23:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The witness

The article that discusses the witness is in Spanish and there is no English news source provided to verify translation and facts. Therefore our third paragraph, which begins with "One of the witnesses told to El Heraldo..." is our own translation. I initially was going to replace that paragraph with the following:

A witness told El Heraldo that he and his seven-year old son saw the aircraft going down and feared there was no hope anyone would survive. According to El Heraldo, the witnesses observed the aircraft flying too low and erratic.

But I don't know if suspect that change would make me too involved as a reviewer. For now I have removed that paragraph entirely due to the translation issue. @Gryllida and/or @Heavy Water (or any other active reviewer), what do you recommend in this situation? —Michael.C.Wright (^Talk/_Published) 23:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC); edited 23:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I am okay with adding it rephrased.

A witness told El Heraldo that he and his seven-year old son saw the aircraft flying erratically and low, and feared they were helpless to avoid the crash.

Possibly like this. Please let me know if and when you would like me to add such text into the article? Gryllida (talk) 01:55, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Article author just added it with inline comment for source. :-) Gryllida (talk) 12:02, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Review of revision 4797766 [Not ready]

Revision 4797766 of this article has been reviewed by Michael.C.Wright (talk · contribs) and found not ready at 15:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC). Copyright: Passed Newsworthiness: Passed Verifiability: Not ready: See comments below and on talk page NPOV: Passed Style: Passed Comments by reviewer: Non-english sources can present a challenge to the review process. In the future, please provide guidance in the talk page regarding how non-English sources are used in the article. All facts must be referenced and verifiable, per WN:Source. We can not add speculative information even if it seems obvious. While an article is under review, please do not edit the article. See the talk page for required changes to pass verifiability. Questions about the above? Ask. If possible, please address the above issues then resubmit the article for another review (by replacing {{tasks}} in the article with {{review}}). This talk page will be updated with subsequent reviews.

Revision 4797766 of this article has been reviewed by Michael.C.Wright (talk · contribs) and found not ready at 15:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC). Copyright: Passed Newsworthiness: Passed Verifiability: Not ready: See comments below and on talk page NPOV: Passed Style: Passed Comments by reviewer: Non-english sources can present a challenge to the review process. In the future, please provide guidance in the talk page regarding how non-English sources are used in the article. All facts must be referenced and verifiable, per WN:Source. We can not add speculative information even if it seems obvious. While an article is under review, please do not edit the article. See the talk page for required changes to pass verifiability. Questions about the above? Ask. If possible, please address the above issues then resubmit the article for another review (by replacing {{tasks}} in the article with {{review}}). This talk page will be updated with subsequent reviews.

Verifiability

Please address the questions above regarding translation help. Also, if any sources are not used to directly support facts and information in the article, they can be removed.

The non-English sources present a unique problem due to machine translation. Therefore we ask authors to post guidance on how non-English sources are used in the article, per WN:Source:

An additional concern is non-English-language sources. These severely restrict the pool of potential reviewing editors. Non-English sources should be restricted to those absolutely essential, such as where there is only a single English source and the non-English source is required to corroborate the story and avoid potential copyright issues. It is strongly recommended you provide some guidance toward translation, or where such may be reliably and readily obtained, on the talk page. Human understanding is needed because automatic translation is not nearly good enough.

I don't think I have disqualified myself as an "uninvolved" reviewer of this article at this point. But I did have to make significant changes due to language. @Gryllida, can you confirm that my changes did not materially alter any facts presented? —Michael.C.Wright (^Talk/_Published) 15:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Michael.C.Wright. (I don't speak Spanish, either. I was involved in expanding the article.) It is unclear to me from the review what it is left unverified. Could you please clarify?

The changes you made look okay to me overall... with one note:

• What is the August 8 thing in first paragraph? I thought September 8.
  • It is weekend in my area and it is challenging for me to check the sources to investigate. I will be at my desktop some time either Sunday or Tuesday, not earlier.

Additionaly in article, not from changes you made:

• Is "The Australian", singled out in the article, the only source that reported that part about embezzling? Seems odd if every other source was more shallow.

Please let me know how I can help, the freshness window is closing quickly now.

Regards, Gryllida (talk) 10:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

You are right, I could have made the feedback more clear.

Items that need corrected for verifiability:

1. Chicas' title must be addressed. Above I asked[1] if "chief" and "director" are interchangeable because different sources use different titles for him. I don't know enough about the Spanish police system to know if that is even a moot point. Just to provide an example of how machine translation can confuse the issue, the following is a translation from the elsalvador.com source article, which calls Chicas, Funes, and Torres "chief":

Among the victims of the crashed aircraft are two other police chiefs: Commissioner Douglas Omar García Funes, deputy director of Specialized Operational Areas of the PNC and Commissioner Rómulo Pompilio Romero Torres, deputy director of Investigations and Corporal Abel Antonio Arévalo, member of the Specialized Police Tactical Unit (UTEP).

In English, a w:police chief is in charge of an entire w:police department. Based on the tone of all of the articles, I gather that Chicas outranked all other police on the helicopter. I think this should be correctly conveyed in our article.

2. Sources section issues: Sources that were not used to directly support information in the article should be removed. Info that can only be found in non-English sources should be discussed by the author here, to clarify how they used those sources as well as guidance on translation. During my fact-checking, I did not need El Pais, La Tribuna, or elsalvador.com. I also did not find that they contradicted our story. —Michael.C.Wright (^Talk/_Published) 15:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Michael.C.Wright side note, the title applies to headline. Gryllida (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean the police person title -- chief -- if is incorrect then should be changed in headline also. Gryllida (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I noted that above when I first asked for clarification.[2] I believe our article should use 'director.' I believe the other articles are translating 'director' to 'chief.' However, as stated previously, I don't know enough to know if it is a distinction without a difference. Maybe it doesn't matter which term we use..

@Gryllida, I'll defer to you here. Later this morning, I’m starting a planned time away from the internet that will last up to seven days. I unfortunately won't be able to re-review this article once Protoeus responds. —Michael.C.Wright (^Talk/_Published) 14:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@Michael.C.Wright sadly, if I will fix it, I think it won’t be approved since even if I do it correctly it won’t be anymore a news. Protoeus (talk) 15:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you please fix it anyway? Gryllida (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gryllida Yes Protoeus (talk) 19:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Protoeus please help with the above urgently, thank you in advance. Gryllida (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@Michael.C.WrightPlease, check my new request. Protoeus (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you please add a note into the article, what "police chief" means? There is confusion about this as Michael.C.Wright noted above: "police chief" in international jargon means "head of police department", while in the article it seemed to me this role is "head of all police in the country". Gryllida (talk) 11:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I've added. Based on 'la élite de la Policía Nacional Civil: el director, Mauricio Arriaza Chicas, y sus dos principales subdirectores' from El Pais source. This should be considered Done now from my perspective. Gryllida (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi

1) Headline:

• Salvadoran director of National Civil Police Mauricio Arriaza Chicas dies in helicopter crash

...is a possibility. I am hoping the reviewer can find it within their ability to implement if required (as in first paragraph I added clarification).

2) If must, the mention of 'Police Chief' can be deleted entirely, it is only in first paragraph and in headline anyway. This would seem to me like a sufficiently minor edit for a reviewer to implement if needed.

Thanks, Gryllida (talk) 20:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Done Headline changed. Gryllida (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Date of capture

"Coto was captured on the Nicaragua border on August 8." @Protoeus could you please confirm the date? I thought it was September 8. (in first paragraph) Gryllida (talk) 20:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I will fix it, it was in September 9. Protoeus (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Gryllida (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@Protoeus @Michael.C.Wright and @BigKrow, unfortunately, this was not published within seven days from the event.

• The language barrier prevented foreign language sources from being read quickly. The article author can help by providing translation of the parts of sources which are relevant for verification.
• The lack of author's knowledge about the required article structure (inverted pyramid, 5W) slowed down the editing. I hope the editing helps @Protoeus understand this structure better in the future draft.

I've marked the article as {{stale}}.

Future follow up may be possible for a new development, for example, cause of crash identified, new police chief appointed, or other new event. Gryllida (talk) 23:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)