Talk:Hungary extends fuel price cap

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Layout[edit]

Here is a list of key source sentences in Hungarian, along with their translations. Please machine translate the articles to get a clear picture.

Price-aggregator site holtankoljak.hu[edit]

"A 95-ös benzin és gázolaj nagykereskedelmi ára is marad a február 4-ei szinten."
The wholesale price of 95 octane gasoline and diesel stays the same as it was on February 4.
"Ezzel a lépéssel a benzinkutak a gázolajat már drágábban veszik, mint amennyiért árulhatják"
With this raise, the stations now buy gasoline for more than for what they can sell it
"Az ársapka nélkül az átlagárak az alábbiak szerint alakulnának: 95-ös benzin: 512 Ft/liter; Gázolaj: 530 Ft/liter"
Without the price cap, consumer prices would be: 95 octane gasoline: HUF512/liter, Diesel: HUF530/liter

Hungarian articles[edit]

"Az elmúlt hét során három töltőállomás zárt be a hatósági benzinár miatt - írja a holtankoljak.hu-ra hivatkozva a napi.hu."
Three stations closed because of the regulated price during the past week - wrote site napi.hu citing [price-aggregator site] holtankoljak.hu.

- this article is based on an MTI report, which is available on the agency's free-to-register site. If needed, I can guide you over the registration procedure, but it is not obvious how to link MTI-articles directly, and their site uses no encryption (just plain http).

"A Nemzeti Adó- és Vámhivatal (NAV) november 15-től több mint kétezer töltőállomást ellenőrzött, a pénzügyőrök eddig mindössze 12 esetben állapították meg a hatósági ár megsértését - tájékoztatta Tállai András az MTI-t."
The National Tax and Customs Administration (NAV), starting on November 15, checked over 2000 petrol stations, [but] officers found only 12 cases of overpricing. - said András Tállai to MTI.
"… az eddig meghozott határozatokban összesen 3,2 millió forint bírságot szabott ki a NAV."
… NAV issued fines amounting to HUF 3.2 million until now.
"A benzin literenkénti átlagára az árstop nélkül hozzávetőlegesen 510, a gázolajé pedig 530 forint lenne."
The average uncapped fuel price would be about HUF510 for [a liter of] gasoline and HUF530 for [a liter of] diesel.
"A kutak azonban betartják a szabályokat, ezt igazolja többek között az is, hogy ismételt jogsértés az elmúlt csaknem három hónapban nem történt – mondta Tállai András."
However, the stations are in line with the rules set, which is reflected by the fact that no recurring violations have had happened in the past three months - said András Tállai.
"A magyar üzemanyagárakra azonban a forint árfolyama is jelentős hatással van, így fordulhatott elő, hogy már júliusban kilencéves rekordon volt a benzinár, pedig akkor a kőolaj ára éppen esett, de a forint gyengülését ez nem tudta ellensúlyozni."
Hungarian fuel prices are influenced significantly by the HUF[-USD] exchange rate. This is how it could happen that the fuel price was on its nine-year high already in July: although crude oil prices were falling then, this could not counter the weakening of the HUF.
"“A független, kis kutak már foglalkoznak azzal a gondolattal, hogy időlegesen bezárnak... ” - magyarázta Grád."
"The independent, small stations are thinking about closing temporarily..." said [Ottó] Grád"
Ottó Grád is the general secretary of the Hungarian Petroleum Association, an umbrella organization of oil distributors (including those with nationwide coverage: MOL, OMV and Shell)

Bills and resolutions[edit]

The decisions about the initial price cap and its extension came as government resolutions (decrees). Bill No. CXXX/2021 aggregates various temporary rules valid during the COVID emergency, including those of the price cap (under section "28. Temporary rules regarding regulated fuel prices" ((hu))Hungarian: ‍28. Hatósági üzemanyagárra vonatkozó átmeneti szabályok). The newest resolution, No. 39/2022, cites this bill instead of the resolutions.

Resolution No. 624/2021[edit]

In the meantime an official translation had been published, but the old translation is available here:

Resolution No. 626/2021[edit]

(link)
  • 2. § (1)
"Az üzemanyagtöltő állomás köteles az... Árrendelet... szerinti termékek forgalmazására az Árrendelet alkalmazási idejére..."
"Stations have to... sell price regulated products until the resolution expires..."
  • 2. § (2)
"Ha az üzemanyagtöltő állomás üzemeltetője az Árrendelet szerinti hatósági áras terméket nem forgalmaz, úgy más... minimum követelményének megfelelő motorbenzint és dízelgázolajat köteles az Árrendelet által meghatározott áron forgalmazni."
"If the station operator does not sell price regulated products as defined in the resolution, then... it has to sell other gasoline and diesel products, which satisfy the minimum requirements of [said] price regulated products, in place of the price regulated products, for the same regulated price."
  • 2. § (6)
"Az üzemanyagtöltő állomás a... szokásos nyitvatartási ideje szerinti nyitvatartási idejénél rövidebb nyitvatartási időt nem alkalmazhat."
"Stations can not shorten their... regular opening hours."
  • 5. § (2)
"Amennyiben... indokolt, a miniszter haladéktalanul... kijelöli a... szolgáltatót az érintett üzemanyagtöltő állomás üzemeltetésére"
"If... necessary, the minister... appoints an operator to the [closed] station... without delay"

Resolution No. 39/2022[edit]

(link)
  • 1. § (1) a)
"a Tv. 41. § (1) bekezdésében meghatározott termék 2022. május 15. napjáig hatósági áras termék, amelyet a kötelezett a Tv. 43. § (1) bekezdésében meghatározottak helyett 2022. május 15. napjáig köteles forgalmazni"
"price regulated products listed under 41. § (1) of said bill shall remain price regulated until May 15, 2022, which [the petrol stations] are obligated to sell until May 15, 2022, as described in 43. § (1) of said bill"
Said bill refers to Bill CXXX/2021.

Government press briefings and speeches[edit]

Closed-door cabinet meetings are usually held on Wednesdays. The press is usually briefed about them the following day by government spokesperson "Minister of the Prime Minister's Office" ((hu))Hungarian: ‍Miniszterelnökséget vezető miniszter Gergely Gulyás. His rank can be checked upon here. There were no briefings on February 10 and on January 27.

November 11 press briefing by government spokesperson Gergely Gulyás[edit]

(link) - YouTube does not support automatic captions for Hungarian

Opening brief. Relevant sections:

  • to establish that the government meeting had been held on Wednesday (November 10, 2021):
    • @7:05 - Gulyás: "The cabinet also discussed utility prices in its meeting yesterday." ((hu))Hungarian: ‍A kormány tárgyalt a rezsiárakról is a tegnapi ülésén.
    • @10:15 - Gulyás: "Yesterday, the cabinet also discussed..." ((hu))Hungarian: ‍A kormány a tegnapi ülésén szintén tárgyalta...
  • a briefing on fuel prices start @8:45 - to establish government goals:
    • @10:05 - Gulyás: "We trust that this [price capping] will help the economy and can contribute to curbing inflation." ((hu))Hungarian: ‍Abban bízunk, hogy ez [az árrögzítés] a gazdaság számára segítséget jelent és részben az infláció mérsékléséhez is hozzá tud járulni.

Q&A session. Relevant sections:

  • @15:45 - questions from ATV - confirms a scheduled overview after three months, the price cap will not be affected by HUF-EUR exchange rate fluctuations
  • @1:14:50 - questions from Népszava -
    • reporter: "A short technical question: does the decision also cover premium products and 100 octane gasoline?" ((hu))Hungarian: ‍Egy rövid kis technikai kérdés: a döntés a prémium termékekre és a 100-as benzinre is vonatkozik?
    • Gulyás: "No, [the decision is just for] 95 octane gasoline and diesel fuel." ((hu))Hungarian: ‍Nem, 95-ös oktánszámú benzinre és gázolajra.
    • reporter: "How will you execute this? By lowering excise duties or VAT or to the detriment of wholesale or retail margins?" ((hu))Hungarian: ‍A maximalizálást azt tulajdonképpen hogy állapítják meg? A jövedéki adó [vagy] ÁFA csökkentésével vagy nagy- [vagy] kiskereskedők árrésének a terhére fog-e ez megvalósulni?
    • Gulyás: "Well, although these details might not be as interesting, but you should know, that Hungarian excise duties on fuels are the lowest ones in the European Union. If the price goes down, so does the corresponding VAT. Excise duties were lowered already as the price hiked. So, the collected VAT will be a smaller amount because of the lower price. There will be no additional tax reductions." ((hu))Hungarian: ‍Ugye, bár ezek a részletkérdések talán kevésbé izgalmasak, de azt tudni kell, hogy az üzemanyagoknak a jövedéki adója az Európai Unióban Magyarországon a legalacsonyabb. Ha csökken az ár, akkor az ÁFA-tartalom is csökken. [sic!] A jövedéki adó már csökkent az áremelkedéssel egyidejűleg. Ezért aztán az ÁFA az alacsonyabb ár miatt csökken. Ezen túlmeően adótartalom nem fog csökkenni.
    • reporter: "Okay, so it will be done on the expense of profit margins..." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍Jó, tehát akkor a kereskedői árrésből fogják csökkenteni...
    • Gulyás nods (not visible)
    • reporter: "... in this case will you compensate for vendor's losses?" ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍... ebben az esetben fogják kompenzálni ezeket a kereskedőket?
    • Gulyás: "No." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍Nem.
    • reporter: "So, the same question with different words: in this case what will you do, if the operators, whose fuel business became lossy, say, [start to] close stations?" ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍Másképp feltéve megint a kérdést, ebben az esetben akkor mit fognak lépni arra, hogyha ugye a kereskedők, akiknek ilyenformán veszteségessé válik az üzemanyag-kereskedelem, mondjuk bezárják a benzinkutakat?
    • Gulyás: "Vendors cannot be forced to vend." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍kereskedőt kereskedelemre kötelezni nem lehet.
    • reporter: "Clear. I have no more questions." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍Világos. Ennyi lett volna.

February 3 press briefing by government spokesperson Gergely Gulyás[edit]

February 12 speech by Viktor Orbán[edit]

(link) - YouTube does not support automatic captions for Hungarian

This invitation-only event can be thought of as an equivalent of State of the Union messages, and was scheduled to be on the day of the official start of campaigning for the April 3 general elections.

  • @29:20 - "We did not sit back and watch prices roar, but instead we introduced a policy of four stops: a stop on [the rise of] utility prices, a stop on [the rise of] fuel prices, a stop on [the rise of] interest rates and a stop on [the rise of] food products. This has not happened for 30 years in Hungary." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍Mi nem néztük tétlenül az árak vágtatását, hanem bevezettük a négy stop politikáját: rezsistop, üzemanyagár-stop, kamat-stop és élelmiszerár-stop. Ilyen 30 éve nem történt Magyarországon.
  • @29:50 - "We have the fifth lowest fuel price [in the European Union]. We pay 480 [Hungarian] forints [for a liter of fuel, but] without the price-stop we would pay well over 500 forints. The price-stop proved to be effective in this case too, so we extend it for three additional months." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍Az üzemanyag ára nálunk az ötödik legalacsonyabb. Ma 480 forintot fizetünk, árstop nélkül jóval 500 forint felett járnánk. Az árstop itt is bevált, ezért három, további három hónappal meghosszabbítjuk.
You may find another translation for the highlighted part in this Reuters article.
  • @30:30 - "Inflation had been lowered by the freeze on utility prices by 1,5%, the freeze on fuel prices by [an additional] 0,5% and the freeze on food prices by [an additional] 0,9%. According to a freshly published report of the [European] Union, the inflation in Hungary this year is [projected] to be 5,4%, and next year it is [projected] to be 3,6%, which is and will be exceeded by the rate by which salaries rise." ((hu))Hungarian language: ‍A rezsicsökkentés másfél százalékkal, az üzemanyagár-stop fél százalékkal, az élelmiszerár-stop 0,9%-kal csökkenti az inflációt. Az Unió most kiadott friss jelentése szerint az infláció Magyarországon idén 5,4, jövőre 3,6% lesz, amit a béremelések mértéke jóval meghalad, és meg is fog haladni

An English summary of the speech is available on the site of the Cabinet Office of the Prime Minister

Our Homeland Movement[edit]

Notes: this party has too low a number of representatives in the Parliament to form their own fraction. Its members seceded from Jobbik after the 2018 Hungarian parliamentary election and were considered that party's far-right core. They did not join to the United for Hungary alliance that runs against the ruling Fidesz-KDNP alliance, and are not likely to reach the five percent threshold needed to enter legislation in the coming election.

András Tállai[edit]

Notes: his post as "deputy" ((hu))Hungarian: ‍miniszterhelyettes finance minister (he works in the "Ministry of Finance" ((hu))Hungarian: ‍Pénzügyminisztérium) can be checked here. The page has no official English translation. He can also be found on the list of MPs.

Miscellaneous[edit]

  • See referenced petrol prices at holtankoljak.hu (archived in November).
  • To get market shares for standard fuels, refer to this table from the Hungarian Petroleum Association. The table is collapsible: click on "Üzemanyag forgalom 2021.01 - 2021.12" to see the data. Divide accordingly (part/total*100).
diesel: 2083251407 / 2378870286 * 100 ≈ 87,57
gasoline: 1132297875 / 1432184866 * 100 ≈ 79,06
  • Regular press briefings in Hungary are called Kormányinfó and they cover a variety of topics, as did the briefings on November 11 and February 3.
  • HUF-USD central rate, Hungarian National Bank, February 14: HUF315.59 / USD1 [1]

Translation[edit]

@Xbspiro: I'm a bit unsure how to deal with this. It looks to be a great article, and I'd hate to see it go to waste, but I am not proficient in Hungarian in the slightest, and per Wikinews policy, "automatic translation is not nearly good enough" as a substitute for English translation. I may be mistaken here, but I am not sure if I will be able to review this article. --LivelyRatification (talk) 22:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@LivelyRatification: If you are uncomfortable with reviewing this, that's fine.
Policy-wise, I can point to three articles, in which I have used Hungarian sources to spice the story up (i.e. to add things which apparently went unreported in English):
In this case, the bulk of the text can be verified using the two English articles (Bloomberg, Euronews).
I have suggested machine translation so that the reviewer could verify that the referenced Hungarian articles are related to this matter.
Then it comes down to analyzing key sentences (which were quoted on the talk page) - now that can be hard, as I have used the law itself which is rather cumbersome in language to start with. I can suggest going word-by-word (using, say, Wiktionary), then feeding the sentences to a machine translation service (such as Google Translate or DeepL) to catch expressions. I can be online for a couple of hours, if that could be of any help - I have just seen you to be active in RC. - Xbspiro (talk) 01:51, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing: the Gulyás quote in the article comes from a Youtube video, for which transcription has not been turned on. We might try to circumvent this by privately re-uploading the video to Youtube, then enabling automatic subtitles for it. (This is just a guess, I have not done this before.) - Xbspiro (talk) 01:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Xbspiro: Thanks for letting me know - the main thing I wanted to know here is if there was precedent policy-wise for something like this. I am comfortable enough reviewing this if that is the case, and I'll try to get to it later today if I have the time. LivelyRatification (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Refocus sources[edit]

Law side[edit]

Courtesy note[edit]

@Xbspiro: The expected date for this story is coming up soon. [24Cr][talk] 21:46, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cromium: There is no news about an extension yet. The government usually holds a press conference weekly on Thursdays (today), so we shall see. Let me ask: would you be comfortable reviving this given the number of foreign language sources? - Xbspiro (talk) 00:13, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, worth waiting for any announcement. Yes, I’d be happy to review as long as you could indicate in hidden comments which sources were used for each but as you have done already. Ideally it would be better to focus on the English language sources but if the information is in the Hungarian ones, then so be it. [24Cr][talk] 00:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, there had been no press conference this week. (At least I could not find a trace of it.) - Xbspiro (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
An announcement had been made on Saturday and, as expected, the price cap stays in place. The official gazette is yet to publish a relevant decree (will happen on Monday, probably). I will try to to get to this within a day. I will probably restructure the explanations on the talk page. - Xbspiro (talk) 03:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cromium: I think the article is ready to be reviewed, if you are available. - Xbspiro (talk) 00:18, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cromium: Please move this one back to story prep, if you would find it stale. If a new government steps in after the election, they might cancel this price cap. If not, it will just expire. Either way, it is expected that a significant number of independent stations will file for bankruptcy soon. The fallout or the future steps the government makes to prevent closures might prove to be enough to save this article. - Xbspiro (talk) 00:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Xbspiro: Not needed to go back to preparation. It just took longer than I expected. I took the publication in the official gazette as the starting point, so it would have become stale after today. Thank you for the extensive notes because they really helped. If anyone else reads this, I’d recommend following this method. Please leave the notes in until archiving takes place. [24Cr][talk] 09:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review of revision 4661941 [Passed][edit]

Revision 4661941 of this article has been reviewed by Cromium (talk · contribs) and has passed its review at 08:35, 16 February 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Comments by reviewer: A very well written article with extensive notes which have been very helpful for reviewing. Some minor copy editing was done.

The reviewed revision should automatically have been edited by removing {{Review}} and adding {{Publish}} at the bottom, and the edit sighted; if this did not happen, it may be done manually by a reviewer.

Revision 4661941 of this article has been reviewed by Cromium (talk · contribs) and has passed its review at 08:35, 16 February 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Comments by reviewer: A very well written article with extensive notes which have been very helpful for reviewing. Some minor copy editing was done.

The reviewed revision should automatically have been edited by removing {{Review}} and adding {{Publish}} at the bottom, and the edit sighted; if this did not happen, it may be done manually by a reviewer.

Thank you. - Xbspiro (talk) 08:17, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Restored[edit]

While I appreciate the effort to improve the text, let me point out a few problems with this version:

  • "Hungarian Viktor Orbán extended a price cap" - Orbán did not extend the price cap himself, he just announced it. The decision, at least officially, was made by the cabinet (via government resolution No. 39/2022).
  • "By extending it, the government hopes to undercut inflation" - The government hopes to undercut inflation by the price cap itself, not just by its extension. The source is in part the November 11 press briefing (Gulyás listed government goals), and in part the announcement (Orbán quantified results as an effect on inflation).
  • "the extension does not indemnify petrol stations" - The institution of price cap itself, not just the extension, does not compensate for losses.
  • The coming election frames the extension, it is not just background info. I think it has a place in the lede. Orbán's announcement was made on the day campaigning for election officially started, and, in its entirety, it is more like a campaign speech rather than a state of the country address. Mentioning it next to the dates early on allows readers to calculate for themselves that the extension pushes the expiration beyond election day.
  • Internal quotation marks (»«) were replaced with standard ones (""), but {{translated quote}} uses standard ones itself, so it kind of breaks quotations. I tend to use (»«), but I am open to suggestions.
  • Although no audio recordings had been made out of this article, each foreign name hinders the effort because of pronunciation problems. That's why I have tried to hide both Magyar Távirati Iroda (news agency), and Magyar Közlöny (official gazette). I am open to suggestions in this regard though, and Cromium revealed Magyar Közlöny already when he made c/e before publishing.
  • I have mentioned inflation data last, because it allowed for a nice loopback, i.e. giving out background info (historical data), then referring back to recent events (Orbán's claims) with just two sentences. I like the contracted version for it being shorter, but it doesn't utilize this effect.
  • "We pay HUF480" - Currency codes in quotes are not okay - in this case, Orbán used the shorter "forint", and [Hungarian] was added by me as clarification. Replaced with HUF, it seems like he said "Hungarian forints", which he did not. When Hungarians talk about currency amounts, they almost always drop the adjective. I have observed a similar tendency in English, when it is not necessary to point out which kind of pound or dollar one talks about.
  • "Napi.hu reported based on the figures indicated" - napi.hu referred to another post/article by holtankoljak.hu. [Unfortunately, this is a chain reference (444.hu reported that napi.hu reported based on what holtankoljak.hu wrote), and I did not have the stamina to untangle this mess.]
  • "despite the press briefing" - a good shorthand. I would prefer to start the sentence with it, because the press briefing was first, then came the detailed description, which I think would be underlined by this structure.
  • "It is understood" - I consider this unnecessary.
  • "Moscow Kremlin" as author; I have borrowed "Presidential Press Office" from this site, which seems to be an official translation for "пресс-службы Президента России" (the Russian version mentions Russia).
  • "but does not cover either liquefied natural gas" - technically, this is true, LNG prices are not capped. However, LPG and LNG is not the same, LPG usage is much more commonplace in Hungarian motorcars. In Hungary, primary LNG users are the public transport companies, as some buses were converted or made to use this, instead of diesel. LNG stations are few and far in between.
  • "Change in Consumer Prices" - that's not the title of the page of the statistics bureau.
  • Based on Cromium's comment, I would leave hidden comments in.

I have applied/kept some shorthands, additions to the source templates and alternative pic descriptions. - Xbspiro (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Generally understood; however, the lede would benefit from being split up. The election sentence is not adequately contextualised to be mentioned so prominently, and in this present form seems to imply something unrelated/background. Please consider replacing »« with "" for Wikinews consistency in Orbán's quote. "It is understood" as it is not stated, but rather implied based on lack of subsequent info. "Based on the price aggregator's data" sub to "Based on its" as already named; please reconsider including other grammatical edits (ie rewording election statement etc) as I find they flow better, and splitting up larger paragraphs for readability. JJLiu112 (talk) 19:34, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have not looked at the edits other than to note they look substantial. Traditionally, post-publishing edits should be limited to what is strictly necessary for accuracy and grammar. --SVTCobra 19:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from the quotation marks and splitting up, I agree. When it comes up, I will give a thought on how to better explain the significance of background info. "It is understood" implies the question: by who? In itself, it would not be good, but again, I will try to avoid this. Per SVTCobra, I've reverted the text to the previous version before your edits - but I really-really appreciate the feedback. - Xbspiro (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The saga continues[edit]

Now, the wholesale prices got frozen too. (Reuters article) - Xbspiro (talk) 13:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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