User talk:DannyS712

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Hi Danny. I will begin the Trump taxes review shortly. If you are still pursuing reviewer rights and you have interest and/or time, perhaps you would like to do a mock review of one of the other two articles up for review. And I don't just mean doing copy-editing and adding categories, but writing your assessment on the talk page: Did you find the article ready to publish or not? If no, state why. If yes, state any changes you made which you felt the author should have gotten right before submitting. You've seen the type of commentary Pi leaves on his reviews; that's what I mean.
I think Wikinews would be well served by another active reviewer. It can quickly become a bottleneck because it often takes longer to review an article than it does to write it. Every fact needs to be confirmed in the listed sources. Cheers, --SVTCobra 18:38, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: I wasn't comfortable leaving this on the talk page, so writing here; I took a look at Swedish academy announces 2019 Nobel Prize winners in physics.
  • While the sources use "Universe" (capital), generally its used as lower case, so I switched it, but it wouldn't be wrong to use uppercase here
  • Both sources use "James", not "Jim" - "Jim" can't be found anywhere in either article. I'm sure there are sources that use "Jim", but none that were cited, so I switched it to be using "James". The enwiki article, however, is at w:Jim Peebles, so I had to pipe it.
  • Given how long its been since it was submitted, I updated the date and phrasing to reflect that its Thursday (when it would most likely be published; Friday would be getting close to stale)
  • Total edits made:
  • Verdict: If I were a reviewer, I would publish the article, specifically Special:Permalink/4520756
    1. Copyright - pass
      • Earwigs flagged phrases "the 2019 Nobel Prize in Physics" and "scientists have been able to", both fairly common
      • The quotation was also flagged, but it is properly attributed
    2. Newsworthiness - pass
      • Specific -
      • Relevant -
      • Fresh - , but not for long
    3. Verifiability - pass
    4. NPOV - pass
    5. Style - pass
      • I switched "Universe" to "universe", but, as noted above, "U" would probably be acceptable
      • Headline - personally, would prefer "Swedish academy announces winners of 2019 Nobel Prize in physics" or "2019 winners of Nobel", but "Swedish academy announces 2019 Nobel Prize winners in physics" meets the requirements
Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 09:39, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: was published by Pi zero - see edits made: --DannyS712 (talk) 23:44, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Looks like most of the changes made by Pi come down to personal preferences. Not sure why Pi deemed that one fact about the number of exoplanets needed to be attributed while the others were fine. So, I'd say you did a fine job. BTW, what is this 'Earwigs' tool you speak of? Cheers, --SVTCobra 12:41, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: --DannyS712 (talk) 06:51, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
@DannyS712, SVTCobra: Though I aspire to apply maximal expertise to each decision, that's not at all the same thing as "personal preference". To test the question, I've gone through and scrutinized each of the edits I made.
  • diff — The concern here is straightforward, though the application was an interesting challenge as I remarked in the edit summary. Use of "America" to mean "US" is inherently non-neutral. In my experience, there's a very strong correlation between people who complain bitterly that this usage is not biased, and people who live in the US.
  • diff — This addressed two concerns at once. One concern was that there was a phrase here verbatim from source. That phrase was a bit over the length threshold (nominally four consecutive words, by the rule of thumb); there is a certain art to judging this, to do with when a sequence of words becomes such a cliche (stock phrase) that its selection by the writer can be treated as more-or-less a single choice and thus, for purposes of word count toward the rule of thumb, more-or-less a single "word"; but when in doubt, breaking up such constructs is preferable. The other concern was with the use of the word "discovery". In the interest of neutrality, when science reporting discusses interpretation of empirical data, avoid terms such as "reveal", "show", "discover" that carry a suggestion that truth is being uncovered; we seek to not endorse such interpretations; this shouldn't be an obstacle to reporting, with attribution, that the scientists gave this interpretation — and with avoiding words like "reveal", "show", etc.
  • diff — Subtle little violations of WN:Future can be easily overlooked, and catching them is all the more valuable for that.
  • diff — Here again, two concerns. The first concern is that, to be precise, these exoplanets were already there so some precision is called for. The second concern is the attribution; and SVTCobra questioned, above, why this fact should want attribution while the other did not. It's because numbers are much easier for people to have different takes on and thus harder to pin down as generally-agreed-upon-common-knowledge than are simple discrete points like 51-Pegasus-b-was-the-first-exoplanet-discovered (yes, that's more like an observation than an interpretation, so "discover" is fine).
  • diff — Another distance-from-source case; as I recall, a rather long verbatim passage whose last word was the "while" that I eliminated there; a tiny decrement to very-close-similarity-of-phrases.
Regarding the aforementioned tool, iirc I took a look at it once-upon-a-time and concluded it was unsuitable for use in review because (I'm merely describing what I remember concluding at the time) unlike dupdet, which lists specific details of particular passages the human operator can then reason about, that other tool generated a lump conclusion which the operator was supposed to simply accept. (It also seemed complacent about specific concerns that I would find very concerning.) --Pi zero (talk) 15:32, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
@Pi zero: Did you mean to say "slightly ambiguous" instead of "inherently non-neutral" in regards to the US/America thing? --SVTCobra 20:18, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: No. Granted, it is sightly ambiguous. --Pi zero (talk) 20:27, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
@Pi zero: OK, then we need to talk about it elsewhere in the future as this is not the proper forum. --SVTCobra 20:32, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: I concur that this would not be an appropriate place for a discussion on the matter. Note, fwiw, that the concerns mentioned re both "America" and "discovery" are included in WN:Neutrality (sections #Avoiding phrase bias, #Scientific results). --Pi zero (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2019 (UTC)


for the help. Baozon90 (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

No problem --DannyS712 (talk) 20:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

US announces restrictions on flying to Cuba[edit]

Hi. I really hesitated over the neutrality aspect of this article, actually doing the whole source-check while mulling it over (everything checked out, btw). The first thing I noticed that concerned me was the lack of variety in the sources; but of course it's not all that complicated a story. And I wondered about the "why" of the thing. (Kudos, btw, for reporting it as a claim of motivation; nicely played. :-) Poking around to see what more far-flung sources have to say on it, I noticed on one hand that nobody really has much to say about it yet, and on the other hand, that what almost everyone does mention is a bit of historical background (that's how I noticed that CBS News was exceptional by having no match for a string search on "Obama"). Anyway, it doesn't look to me as if much is needed, but after giving it all time to sink in, I honestly felt something is needed. --Pi zero (talk) 15:50, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll try to add some history --DannyS712 (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Re: Richard Spencer[edit]

Hi DannyS712

I am intermittently online this quarter of the year but just saw the very detailed and informative story about Richard Spencer. In the story the headline is in passive tense, can this be corrected without making it too long?

Thank you greatly for your continued effort and commitment. It is amazing. I do not cope with following local news beyond the local suburb these days and appreciate your attention to the detail.

--Gryllida (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@Gryllida: I'm in the middle of something on enwiki right now, but have no objections if you want to rename the article. If not, I'll try to take a look soon --DannyS712 (talk) 23:42, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks; I am afraid that I lack the background knowledge to do a rename sanely. Look forward to your assistance. Gryllida (talk) 23:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I couldn't think of a good, active, title. I'll leave it for now. --DannyS712 (talk) 04:02, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I would perhaps suggest to merge the first two paragraphs[edit]

--Gryllida (talk) 02:29, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Assuming this is US House of Representatives impeaches President Trump, I was trying to follow Wikinews:Style guide#The first paragraph, but no objections if you want to merge them. My priority is just trying to get this published asap, as it is breaking news --DannyS712 (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
I was thinking about answering the 5Ws. It answers the Why. I am not sure what is the best way to go from here. Gryllida (talk) 02:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
@Gryllida: I've added a why to the first paragraph --DannyS712 (talk) 03:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

mainspace disambigs[edit]

This is a grey area. The style guide, which says to use a mainspace redirect instead of linking directly to a category, is about writing an article. I've been linking directly to categories in the disambig pages. Whether that's what we should do... is less clear to me, atm. Maybe I had in mind some reasoning on why to link to the categories directly in that case; if I did have some reasoning in mind, it has not yet come back to me. Do you have any thoughts? --Pi zero (talk) 01:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Not an big-scale ideas, but we should be consistent about where we link to redirects vs directly to the categories. If articles use redirects, thats fine. What should disambiguation pages use? What should other namespaces use? (Content, not talk) --DannyS712 (talk) 01:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
In most situations, we go through the mainspace redirects. Any exception ought to be for a specific reason.
  • The preload page for disambig pages illustrates linking directly to category pages. {{mainspace disambig/template preload}}.
  • The purpose of a mainspace redirect is to provide a link based on a "keyword" independent of the target namespace; ultimately, this is extended through {{w}} to wikilink syntax independent even of target project.
  • The purpose of a wikilink in a disambiguation page is, ordinarily, to link explicitly to a category. There is no intention to be independent of target namespace.
So I guess I'm leaning again toward linking directly to categories in this situation; the confusing think here was that the second option on the disambig page used {{w}} because there was no local target.

Does my reasoning sound plausible to you? If we're going to do things that way, we should look for ways to further document the practice, so that hopefully folks in future can more readily see that it's meant to be done that way. --Pi zero (talk) 04:33, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

So use direct links to categories, or {{w}}? I suggest making a discussion somewhere so this can be agreed on, and then I can go through (manually or via bot) and apply the new scheme --DannyS712 (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Sigh. It's already done in a consistent way, set out when the disambig-page arrangement was first set up and followed ever since (till now). Blood Red Sandman went along with it, as I recall. Seems like escalating the discussion is only needful if we're looking to change the arrangement, and honestly, as I think about it I have no desire to change it. I admit, on reflection I can see I was hoping you'd agree it was a plausible arrangement, and we could simply look for ways to improve its documentation, and continue it. --Pi zero (talk) 04:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
It seems that there are a lot of things that are the standard/general way of doing things here, but that aren't documented anywhere... --DannyS712 (talk) 04:53, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Yeah. Historically, Wikinews has been more of a living tradition, passed on directly from user to user rather than through documentation pages. A Wikinewsie from an earlier era than I remarked, some time back, that small news orgs usually aren't well documented, as folks are too busy writing news to write about how they write news; it's the really big orgs that have massive documentation (like AP, or BBC). The shortage of Wikinews documentation makes reviewer-reporter interaction, especially review comments and also notably edit-summaries during review, extremely important, as a major vector for passing on know-how. Part of what I've done here has been to deliberately try to soak up all the lore I could from past generations of Wikinewies so I could continue passing it on to later generations (a temporary arrangement; I mean to make myself unnecessary in the long run). I have tried to extend our documentation; notably, WN:PILLARS is mostly a compilation of sentences each of which I'd written hundreds of times in review comments till I could recite them in my sleep. I also hope to embed further know-how into the semi-automated tools I hope to develop (yet another thing making that development more daunting). --Pi zero (talk) 05:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Automated tools? Coding? Javascript? Dibs :) - let me know if I can help. --DannyS712 (talk) 05:30, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Heh. I'll try to remember to provide you a bit of background on what I've been doing (not just atm; time for me to turn in, and tomorrow morning I anticipate reviewing). --Pi zero (talk) 05:35, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Two technical questions[edit]

  • How have you been going about finding those old unprotected articles? (Because I can think of a way, but am curious whether there's another that I'm overlooking.)
  • How have you been going about looking for external archives of broken sources? (Because it seems I've sometimes succeeded in that where you'd reported failure.)

--Pi zero (talk) 05:33, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm sometimes really bored - some experimenting with the api / database queries / looking through logs
I've been putting the url in the search

--DannyS712 (talk) 05:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC) search? Hm. Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever tried that. When I've got a broken source url, I just manually prepend*/
producing things like*/
which seems to work if anything will. --Pi zero (talk) 05:56, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
I'll try that next time --DannyS712 (talk) 05:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Also, what was the way you could think of for finding them? --DannyS712 (talk) 05:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Oh, for a moment I thought I saw a way to do it with a DPL; but on second thought I decided I'd been wrong about that. --Pi zero (talk) 05:59, 1 January 2020 (UTC)


Hello. Not sure about adding Hillary Clinton and John Kerry to this category. I think there is a difference between Secretaries of State / Foreign Ministers (yes they’re involved in diplomacy) and ambassadors / high commissioners / consuls (commonly agreed diplomats). Thoughts? -Green Giant (talk) 22:59, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Given how small the category was, I couldn't tell what the intended scope is. I think that Foreign Ministers that are involved in diplomacy (not sure about all of the countries) and the US Secretary of State should be included, even if they are not career diplomats, since they are still diplomats (political / appointed). --DannyS712 (talk) 23:44, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Hmm... this may be a cultural thing but I see your point. In the UK we don’t regard the Foreign Secretary as a diplomat. We would reserve it for ambassadors and other envoys. I think they’re almost all career diplomats, whereas in the US there are some ambassadors who appear to be appointed for other reasons. The recently dismissed Gordon Sondland is an example of this. -Green Giant (talk) 00:14, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
I think I understand why the divergence - in a parliamentary system like the UK, the Foreign Secretary gets to make policy, while in the US, the Secretary of State mostly implements the President's policy. Thus, in the latter the role includes more diplomacy. --DannyS712 (talk) 00:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi DannyS712. Please check this space.[edit]

--Gryllida (talk) 04:55, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

@Gryllida: I'm afraid my wiki-related coding is mostly taken up by phab:T159299 at the moment. Also, that post is addressed "To reviewers", which I am not one, and I prefer to spend my script development time on scripts that I will be able to use (if only so that I can test them and make sure they work as intended). Hopefully that'll change soon (Wikinews:Flagged revisions/Requests for permissions#DannyS712 (talk · contribs – Edit rights) is still open) but for now I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to help. Sorry, --DannyS712 (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2020 (UTC)


I had in mind to give you some constructive advice, when closing the RFP; alas, when I knew what I wanted to say, there was some activity in the discussion so I figured to wait a bit, and in the interim I've lost track so will have to try to reconstruct suitable remarks. If I don't get back to you on this, eventually it'll be time to remind me. --Pi zero (talk) 06:17, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I intend to apply again soon, though hopefully the community can decide what the image guidelines are! I'm going to be posting someone where central soon (once I'm done with my current article). Are you on IRC? --DannyS712 (talk) 06:20, 15 February 2020 (UTC)


Hi, I have seen that you have added interwikis to some articles. I think this should be handled on Wikidata. I use interwiki links in articles only if they link to or from Incubator. Maybe even that could be done through Wikidata, I don't know. - Xbspiro (talk) 19:52, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I have just tried it, Wikidata still doesn't support interwikis on Incubator. - Xbspiro (talk) 20:56, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
At least for now, wikinews uses local interwikis, even if they are also on wikidata --DannyS712 (talk) 21:01, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
<dropping in> It was a pretty solid consensus here on en.wn; I hope we'll always retain explicit interwikis. The fundamental principles of local visibility and local control featured prominently, and there's no technical change at Wikidata that could redress those. (Though there are measures that could be added to combine the strengths of local interwikis with the advantages of the central clearinghouse at Wikidata.) --Pi zero (talk)
Sorry guys, I did not know about the community consensus. There were instances (Q81776283, Q80792090, Q81328192, Q81482849, Q81718305) when interwikis were not added to the article, and I thought it is the norm not to include them - so adding them to the article seemed strange to me. (These pages had been protected by now.) - Xbspiro (talk) 00:08, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
We don't necessarily expect them all to be added (though it's a positive thing when they are); we do like to add them at opportunity, and we don't remove them merely because the information is also on Wikidata. --Pi zero (talk) 00:51, 3 March 2020 (UTC)


Hi. I noticed you created a new category, and did a bunch of other things. The ideal procedure is:

  1. You prepare the category.
  2. On its talk page, you compile a list of articles that would be in this category, and it would be better if you provide rationale, and tag it with {{Fill this category}} (FTC request).
  3. Then compile a list of redirects that should be created for that category.

This procedure works best for the archived articles. And when an admin/reviewer pair is unavailable to sight the edits immediately. We tend to avoid doing that out of order.
•–• —Preceding comment was added at 06:36, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I would tag it for edits I couldn't make myself, but I could edit all of the articles myself. I've created Category:Qasem Soleimani, Category:Impeachment of Donald Trump, Category:COVID-19, Category:Elijah Cummings, and Category:Roscosmos (as well as a few others). For the first 3 listed, I could edit all of the articles myself (as was the case here) and doing so was fine. For the last 2, I posted on the talk page with {{Fill this category}}, and while Category talk:Elijah Cummings was responded to, Category talk:Roscosmos has been unchanged since October. In this case, a search ( showed that all of the pages that I would think of adding were recent enough that I could still edit them, and so I did. While the procedure you give above makes sense "for the archived articles", it doesn't seem to apply here. Is this "ideal procedure" documented anywhere else? --DannyS712 (talk) 06:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Please, check your IRC memo for the reply.
•–• 07:27, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Note for myself that this was Done --DannyS712 (talk) 08:12, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Reviewing your Super Tuesday article[edit]

I hope to complete the Super Tuesday review this afternoon; taking a detour first for acagastya's railway article, which I hope will go reasonably briskly. --Pi zero (talk) 18:45, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks --DannyS712 (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikignome stuff[edit]

Thought you might appreciate this bit of wikignomery. The {{w}} template is designed to flag out pages where it links locally, through a hidden category (c); the idea is to leave it in place until after adding the article (or deciding not to add it) to the locally linked target category. It's possible to do the categorization via HotCat and harden the link in the same edit, by clicking the "+" on HotCat to add a category, and entering the name of the category to add, but then instead of clicking "ok" to add that category, click the "+" to add another category; that causes HotCat to provide a "save" button at the start of the list of categories, which you can then click on, and instead of immediately submitting an edit to add the category, it gives you an edit panel with the categorization all lined up. You can then edit the page to also harden the local link at the same time. --Pi zero (talk) 03:07, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Cool --DannyS712 (talk) 04:32, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I just click on the (++) near the word "Categories", then the + to add the categories in one go, then clicking "Save".
•–• 09:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)


This is long overdue! --Bddpaux (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Pencil tip closeup 2.JPG The Order of the Modest Pencil

For completing 5 edits.

Great work! Keep it up! --Bddpaux (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Thanks --DannyS712 (talk) 21:44, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


Could you please not remove them? If the author has used it, please keep them as they are.
•–• 12:04, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Sure --DannyS712 (talk) 14:41, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Deleting redirects[edit]

While tagging redirects to be deleted in the pre-publish state, make sure you break the redirect. Just a head's up.
•–• 23:48, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean by "break the redirect"? I put the deletion tag at the top of the page, so it shouldn't work as a redirect... --DannyS712 (talk) 23:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Re: Third death from Covid-19 reported in Singapore[edit]

Please see a question HERE. --Gryllida (talk) 01:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Will do when I have a moment, I'm busy coding, sorry --DannyS712 (talk) 01:41, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Handling archived articles[edit]

This is a pretty specialized situation, but it did come up, so: When editing an archived article that is directly categorized in Category:Archived rather than using template {{archive}}, do not remove the category before adding the template. Doing so could (depending on the date of the article) cause the article to appear on newsfeeds as if it were a recently-published article. I realize that might have been just an oversight, in the case that arose last night, but: that should never happen; please be very careful not to let it. (The same goes, btw, pretty-much infinitely more, if ever touching an old article that is categorized directly in Category:Published rather than using template {{publish}}; think of those as death traps, not to be touched unless you know precisely what you're doing lest something irreparable happen.)

I also strongly recommend against using, for this purpose, the trick I described to you a while back for combining customized edits with HotCat. It's way too important to avoid accidentally removing the category before adding the template, so an unacceptable risk of manual error would come from using HotCat for the purpose (because then you'd be telling HotCat you wanted to remove the category before manually adding the template, and it would only take a tiny slip with HotCat to cause the category to be removed first, which must not be allowed to happen). So, edit the article, manually add the template, be absolutely sure the template is correctly in place (use preview and carefully observe that the page is typeset correctly), and only then remove the direct category, either manually in the same edit (being very, very sure you've got the template correctly set up) or even in a separate edit to be super sure. --Pi zero (talk) 13:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I wasn't thinking (I know about DPL going based on order) --DannyS712 (talk) 14:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


Hi DannyS712 (What does that "S712" part mean?...)

Just checking that you are aware that HotCat can add multiple categories in one edit? I learned of it a few months after I started using it, but when I did, it was okay.

--Gryllida (talk) 04:35, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm aware of that, yes (the S712 means nothing) --DannyS712 (talk) 04:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Any problems that you are facing with that, DannyS712? I mean, you don't have to save and let the page reload all the time: if you are not doing that, there must be something the gadget is lacking, maybe one could improve the tool.
•–• 08:36, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Nope, no problems --DannyS712 (talk) 12:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay. If you were to wrap them up in one edit, that would make it easier to monitor the RC and it is less likely for an admin to miss a spam revision.
•–• 13:08, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Noted. I find it easier to follow the edits if they are separate. --DannyS712 (talk) 13:11, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Personally I like separate edits for article content, but as few edits as possible for maintenance tasks like category adding. That makes things easier on me in any Wiki, including here. There isn't any requirement to do everything in one edit though. — Gopher65talk 06:14, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
@Gopher65: Yes, everyone has their own way of doing things :) Welcome back, by the way - I saw your last edit was in July --DannyS712 (talk) 06:47, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

US judge rules Ocean City, Maryland, ban on public nudity legal[edit]

I really am sad about missing this; I'd just completely failed to register it was on its last day yesterday, or I might have reviewed it yesterday afternoon instead of the Bernie article. --Pi zero (talk) 19:01, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I'll see if it can be refocused in any way --DannyS712 (talk) 20:29, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


I was surprised to see you'd filed requests on those other two de-crat noms. We hadn't really discussed it yet; and, as I pointed out to the nominator, the policy does not require removal, merely authorizes it. I was advocating pinging them and giving them a chance to comment (in fact, I had queried TUFKAAP, but there certainly hadn't been nearly enough time to reasonably expect a response yet). --Pi zero (talk) 21:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Even if they had commented, the policy authorized removal for lack of bureaucrat activity, and simply commenting, while satisfying the editing requirements, doesn't satisfy the use requirements. The policy does not require removal, but it authorizes it, and so I asked those with the technical ability to do so to take the authorized actions. If the community wants to change the policy, that is the community's perogative, but until any change is agreed to the policy as it stands should be put into practice. --DannyS712 (talk) 21:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Putting into practice the policy as it stands does not imply such a hawkish approach. Just saying. --Pi zero (talk) 22:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't consider it hawkish to follow the policy as written, but noted --DannyS712 (talk) 23:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


Hey, just a head's up: "Public Domain" is not a license. The closest you have is CC0. And regardless of they choose to release their work in CC0 or CC BY 2.5, they need to state is unambiguously. Right now, looking at the discussion, it is not clear if they were trying for CC0, or CC BY (version has to match too). You must clarify at the talk page: not Public Domain, but CC0. (@Green Giant: in case if we need a second opinion on licensing)
•–• 19:06, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I know its not a license; I might have phrased it poorly in the module. In the discussion, it is clear to me that all are okay with releasing their contributions into the public domain and/or licensing it under CC0. --DannyS712 (talk) 19:13, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
They need to state it explicitly. One of them mentioned releasing it in public domain. It is not a license in which you license your work. They need to state explicitly "I release my contributions to this module under CC0 1.0/CC BY 2.5 license". Since the first one started with public domain, there is a domino effect. Please get it in explicit words in a license that actually is valid.
•–• 19:20, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
If its in the public domain no license is needed, but I'll ping everyone again --DannyS712 (talk) 19:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

yeah, getting explicit statements would be good. Point to note, PD is not a license so if you are looking for that, make sure you use CC0 1.0 in future. They are not the same, but often people use it interchangeably. Please be careful from now onwards.
•–• 19:26, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I know it is not a license. I was careful, though I may have phrased myself poorly on the module page (no idea, you deleted it with the rationale "License concerns" despite it having been released into the public domain) but whatever, lets just go through another round on dewiki --DannyS712 (talk) 19:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
The reason why I deleted is because the contributors said "I release it in public domain" and "I agree". You can't release something in public domain: it is not a license, and therefore, it is a meaningless sentence. Unless stated explicitly, those sentences would have no meaning to it. If someone says they released their work in "public domain", it is a meaningless thing to say. There is a reason why about the "Save changes" it is not written "copied from a public domain license".
•–• 19:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
You can release something into the public domain, even though it is not a license. See, eg, - "There are four common ways that works arrive in the public domain:" including "the copyright owner deliberately places it in the public domain" --DannyS712 (talk) 19:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
A classic blunder photographers make is saying "I allow my photo to be used by Wikipedia". It is a meaningless sentence and does not tell anything about the license and is therefore discouraged.
•–• 19:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the photographers example has to do with anything - this is contributors understanding licensing requirements and agreeing the put their contributions in the public domain, not just "allow[ing] [their contributions] to be used by Wikipedia" --DannyS712 (talk) 19:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

CU of LTAs[edit]

Hi. Can you share the link to the place where the recent LTA's CU is taking place? Or is it behind the closed doors?
•–• 22:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Behind closed doors - these are well known ltas, quickly locked, and whatever open proxy the used is also gblocked --DannyS712 (talk) 22:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay. Must say, they are getting good at finding open proxies. Would like to discuss this in private.
•–• 22:11, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Why? Just don't post the names and it should be fine --DannyS712 (talk) 22:12, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Why? Because discussion about the potential solutions if done in public can be easily abused.
•–• 22:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Then please email me --DannyS712 (talk) 22:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

We both have cloaks: that form would be more instantaneous.
•–• 22:45, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, I'd but prefer to discuss this over email --DannyS712 (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Prepared articles[edit]

Clarification. It's my perception that acagastya deleted the article because there was no clearly defined future event that it was about. I'm not unsympathetic to that concern; it doesn't seem kosher to stash an old failed article indefinitely in prepared-article space without an identifiable expected-event capable of being observed to have passed.

I undeleted it on the understanding that you wanted to access the article temporarily for purposes of saving it off-wiki. Did I misunderstand your request? Or, do you have a specific expected-event to associate with it? --Pi zero (talk) 02:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I felt that the content could be used for a future article, without having a specific expected event that I know is coming. I'm not unsympathetic to that concern either, but I definitely am unsympathetic to unilateral deletion of prepared content without prior discussion if it could still be used, as in this case --DannyS712 (talk) 02:03, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
There's a hazard in that, though: this project would have suffocated under a mountain of garbage ages ago if not that we delete our failures and move on. Sending a failed article to story-preparation has to be limited to cases where the expected-event is well-defined; it's surely not allowable to keep a failed article lying around forever against the possible occurrence of "something related to public nudity"; that's not an expected event. --Pi zero (talk) 02:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
True, but we do delete most failures; I just kept one that can be used for background content. I would think expanding that would be preferable to me just pasting the content into a new draft with the attribution only available to those who can see deleted revision --DannyS712 (talk) 02:22, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
A natural alternative would be that if and when the old material is actually wanted for an article about a fresh event, that's the time to request undeletion. --Pi zero (talk) 02:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Only if one remembers that the old material exists, and where to find it - what is the harm that comes to the project from keeping this? Its clearly not spam, but meant to further the goals of the project, and per Wikinews:What Wikinews is not - "Wikinews is not paper. Thus, Wikinews has no size limits" --DannyS712 (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
It would, I think, be easy to get ourselves mired here in a false dichotomy of nobody's intentional making, by failing to distinguish two separate issues. There's how best to arrange for later restoration of material that didn't make it to publication, and there's how to maintain the story-preparation area. If I say the story-preparation area is not an appropriate solution for failed-article-disposition, that's not saying much about failed-article-disposition. Okay, I've clarified that. Now: I am saying the story-preparation area is not an appropriate solution for failed-article-disposition. Granted, you're in good repute here, and you're not going hog-wild with this sort of thing in the story-preparation section; but although that sort of thing does matter on Wikinews, we don't make it our first-cut criterion for excluding material, which would be highly vulnerable to abuse. We need to have a first tier of principles that keeps things sane. Note that the "it's just one article" argument works in the other direction, too: if it's just one article, it shouldn't be a problem to recollect what it was called in order to request undeletion later. --Pi zero (talk) 03:18, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure you clarified anything, since this left me even more confused, but go ahead and delete Wikinews:Story preparation/US judge rules Ocean City, Maryland, ban on public nudity legal - I've made a copy of the current content at User:DannyS712/Prepared in case it is useful in the future. Since my userspace is outside of the Wikinews "story-preparation area", it shouldn't be an issue for me to keep a copy there. Please let me know if you are going to delete any of my other prepared stories, and I'll copy them accordingly --DannyS712 (talk) 05:05, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Um, no, that's not okay. Wikinews isn't a web-host. The concern with the material isn't limited to which area it's stored in, and in fact userspacing failed articles is, depending on how one looks at it, either a separate problem, or a different expression of the same problem.

Perhaps there could be some illumination in considering the particular case. What do you envision reusing the Maryland-nudity-ruling material for? --Pi zero (talk) 11:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Keeping the content in my user space doesn't turn wikinews into a web host, since the content is related to wikinews. I envision using the material as background for a future store. --DannyS712 (talk) 15:26, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

What insight can you offer as to what story you would use it as background for? --Pi zero (talk) 15:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

None - there isn't a specific story that this would be used for that I have in mind. Something in a similar field - a similar ruling upholding a ban, or one striking it down, or an appeal, etc. --DannyS712 (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Please undelete the page in my userspace, unless there is a policy I'm unaware of that unpublished stories cannot be kept in userspace. On the other hand, if there is such a policy, lots of other pages would need to be deleted:
  1. User:AZOperator/Singapore: US and North Korean leaders signing joint statement at denuclearization summit
  2. User:AZOperator/US: Flight instructor attempts deportation of Chinese student by kidnapping
  3. User:Aideenuow/British explorers complete world first row to North Pole
  4. User:Aideenuow/Bushranger Ned Kelly's remains found
  5. User:Aideenuow/UN will investigate possible 'crimes against humanity' in Syria
  6. User:Ajh903/"Planking" Australia, becomes a global phenomenon
  7. User:Ajp491/F.B.I. Agents Deemed Justified In 150 Shootings
  8. User:Ajp491/Five-year-old boy shoots two-year-old sister in Kentucky
  9. User:Ajp491/Julian Assange reveals contact with NSA whistleblower
  10. User:Ajp491/UN says 93,000 confirmed deaths in the Syrian war
  11. User:Abram samuelson/Rash of U.S. hate crimes brings strong convictions
  12. User:Adam UOW86/Australian rugby league team sign Papua New Guinea player
  13. User:Adam UOW86/Papua New Guinea Hunting Big Scalps in Queensland Cup
...and that is just the start of the 'A's. There is a double standard being applied here - if the concern with the material isn't limited to which area it's stored in, then it shouldn't have been deleted from either place. If the concern does change based on which area it is in, then at the very least the userspace version shouldn't have been deleted. --DannyS712 (talk) 19:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I understand "double standard", in this context, to imply that you have been treated one way and everyone else another. That's not so.

I did misunderstand your stated reason for the undeletion-request; had I realized you wished to reverse the deletion-decision of another admin, I would have treated it as a more weighty decision. Once I realized, I did not wish to be unnecessarily abrupt, both because it seemed unnecessarily hostile treatment of a presumed ally, and lest immediate re-deletion merely increase the number of times the deletion/undeletion status of the page was flipped. At that time it seemed conceivable some additional consideration might come out in subsequent discussion to change the situation yet again. So I stated a plan to re-delete it about a day after I'd undeleted it. I consider that plan still in effect. It now seems likely we'll end up, in a few hours, with both copies of the page deleted, as you say.

Btw, I don't see you're significantly inconvenienced by deletion; you can reasonably request undeletion if and when some specific story makes it appropriate to do so. If at that time you don't remember the name of the page, ask for help with that part; it shouldn't be hard for an admin to find. --Pi zero (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

You say "That's not so" - in that case, why was my work deleted, while others' wasn't? I disagree that I'm not inconvenienced by the deletion - down the road when I have 20 prepared stories that were deleted, should I keep them all in my head? Thats why the userspace page would have worked for me - I could have kept all of the info in the same place --DannyS712 (talk) 00:16, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Each case was an individual case, judged (by whomever was involved in that case) according to the specifics of its situation and the state of our slowly-evolving best-practices at the time the case was considered. The existence of a few articles that haven't been deleted also says nothing whatever about how many were deleted, and especially how many were not allowed to move into userspace and so were eventually deleted from mainspace.

A suggestion. Seems to me there would be no problem were you to keep a small note somewhere on-wiki with a list of deleted unsuccessful articles you might find useful to resurrect when their content becomes relevant background to some other story; I wouldn't think you'd need need more than the headlines (if any additional words were needed, which seems unlikely, it doesn't seem like it would take very many words), and one would think it would serve as all the reminder you'd need. --Pi zero (talk) 00:32, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

And it seems to me that there should be no problem with me keeping the content itself somewhere on-wiki. Unless the articles I linked are deleted, or a reason why they are different than mine is given, this would appear to be a double standard --DannyS712 (talk) 00:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I do not find "double standard" an accurate description of the situation. I've already described, above, major factors involved. I do think honest efforts have been been made to apply rational principles to each case, as it came up. Standards have evolved over time, which further complicates the overall situation. This is very much an area of best-practices —and their articulation— converging slowly over many years, toward some eventual articulated policy that, if I could describe precisely, we'd have already have arrived at. (I recall it being remarked around here, a time or two, that policy documents are what we do, written down.) As for revisiting some (or all) of those various cases, I reckon there will come a point, yes, where we ought to do that. The right moment will likely be, I think, when we have naturally arrived at a greatly clarified general policy on these things, as a natural (by)product of our efforts to facilitate front-line news production. At that point we'll be able to revisit old cases highly efficiently and won't have had to divert our attention from more central concerns. --Pi zero (talk) 02:50, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm now even more confused. Is User:AZOperator/Singapore: US and North Korean leaders signing joint statement at denuclearization summit fundamentally different such that it doesn't need to be deleted? Until we have "a greatly clarified general policy", or even any policy that allows deletion of content relevant to wikinews kept in user space (I haven't seen one), I request that my /Prepared page be restored. --DannyS712 (talk) 03:13, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I see no grounds for making the way one case is handled contingent on whether the other is relitigated atm. --Pi zero (talk) 03:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm not saying that one case should be contingent on another, just that treating the two cases different for no clear reason is indeed a double standard: wikt:double standard - "he situation of two or more groups, one of which is tacitly excused from following a standard generally regarded as applying to all groups, or contrariwise, forced to follow a standard others are tacitly excused from" --DannyS712 (talk) 03:56, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to file a DR for those cases. If you recall, Ottawahitech'a articles in userspace were deleted. Just because we are going one step at a time to remove things that shouldn't be on-wiki does not mean it is double standards. We have other things to do as well. (talk) 04:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is a DR needed if they qualify for speedy deletion? I don't agree that they qualify, but if they do a DR is unneeded --DannyS712 (talk) 05:01, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Why do they need a DR? Well, speedy deletion works better when there is an abundance of admins ready with the moo and the bucket. But things can be left behind because admins have to do many other things. For an admin to not miss it, it would be better if it was up on the notice board where admins frequent. (talk) 05:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean by "admins ready with the moo" --DannyS712 (talk) 05:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
<pi zero is pretty sure that was keyboard misbehavior for the standard phrase "mop and bucket", which describes the unglamorous realities of admin tasks.> --Pi zero (talk) 12:49, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

"SARS-CoV-2 surpasses 100,000 confirmed deaths in the United States"[edit]

Congratulations on having the article published, it is a high profile story that needs to be covered. My changes were for improving the article, and not intended to undermine you or your work. In retrospect, I should have pinged you over my concerns as well as @Acagastya: and I would have enjoyed being pinged when the revert was put in place. In future articles lets communicate better and I know the content will improve.

With that said, could you help me out on the SpaceX article. I set up the main components only to have the launch scrubbed at the last moments. My schedule is very dynamic so I don't know if I can attend to it when it happens. -- AZOperator (talk) 18:15, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought the undo would have pinged you --DannyS712 (talk) 18:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
No, I was felt like the reports findings were a bit cluttered and could use a different flow. The Brazil angle was never going to fly, it just has so many holes in it because of how they are dealing with the crisis. Anyway, have more faith in people. AZOperator (talk) 02:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean by have more faith --DannyS712 (talk) 11:05, 30 May 2020 (UTC)