User talk:Darkfrog24

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Re: help template

Hey, thanks for your offer of help on my talk page, but I think I may have done it wrong. I put it there as a kind of "I am a noob, beware my mistakes"(not that I've made any contribs so far, shame on me), so sorry if it's not right, I'll take it down. And sorry again if this isn't how to reply to a message :P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steelthumbs (talk • contribs)

Evidence regarding present tense

Nice, Pi zero said earlier " ... "are looking into" is inaccurate because it claims something we don't, and can't, know ... " Does w:Present_continuous#Common_uses pass as evidence for it. This verb form is used "To describe something which is happening at the exact moment of speech". Pi zero was objecting to reporting that the investigation is happening at the exact moment (of publication) because this fact is unconfirmed. Gryllida (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

No it does not pass as evidence for it.

Pi zero can be a very logical person and sometimes acts as though the English language were more logical than it really is under actual use.

News articles are a snapshot in time. In English, it is understood that the present tense refers to an event ongoing at the time of reporting, not at the time of reading. Here's a source: [1] City University of New York.

If you find this expert credible, we could email her with this specific question. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes at the time of reporting not reading,

Say we report on Thursday "police are investigating" means we need a source that says that the investigation is ongoing as of Thursday? Is there a source for that? Gryllida (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

The way we work, I'd say using the present tense from sources printed Wednesday is still okay, so long as there is no reason to expect that the investigation has since stopped. Again, if you want to consult the expert, I'm game. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

We are not reporting expectations only verifiable facts? Gryllida (talk) 22:31, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this is how we report verifiable facts in English.

You don't have to take my word for it. What kind of source or expert, on-Wiki or off, do you find credible and impressive? Let's not waste anyone's time showing you something you won't care about.Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

To provide you with the source I need to know what is the problem here. I do not fully follow it. To simplify it here is a series:

1. We agree that we only report verifiable facts.
2. We agree that present tense relates to what is ongoing at the time of speech.
3. We agree that publishing 'police is investigating' today would mean the fact 'police has an ongoing investigation at the moment of publication'.
4. We agree that publishing such a phrase would require that the reviewer somehow verifies the fact. Typically the sources are from a day or two ago, or several hours ago.
5. We agree that the reviewer usually does not have access to such a current source that would allow the reviewer to verify the fact.
6. We agree therefore that the fact 'police has an ongoing investigation at the moment of publication' is not possible to verify.
7. We agree therefore that the phrase 'police is investigating' can not be published in an article at Wikinews.

Please let me know which part of this list you disagree with. It would make it a lot easier to find the best source for it. Gryllida (talk) 01:33, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

No, I meant I would find you a source. Just tell me what kind you respect. I was offering to do the work.

Okay. We do not agree that "police are investigating" is impossible to verify to a reasonable standard given Wikinews' lag. If you read enough source articles (which you are already doing if you review Wikinews articles) then this will eventually click for you.

Maybe it is time to let this rest. Let everything everyone has said settle in your head, read some source articles without the pressure of a WN conversation and see how you feel after all the emotions have cooled down. -Darkfrog

I think you wish to make an assumption that, if a source said "police are investigating" two days ago, then they are still investigating. I am not comfortable with this assumption. It is not only because two days is long and they may have finished the investigation; it is simply a matter of principle of not making any assumptions.

If they said it two minutes before I click "publish" I would not be comfortable with this, either. I would wish to write, in some kind of English that is deemed acceptable, that "they were investigating as of two minutes ago, and we do not know whether or not they are investigating now". --Gryllida (talk) 02:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not an assumption. It's how the English language works. Read enough of our sources, which I figure you're already in the habit of doing, and this will click for you. No need to rush it. It'll happen on its own.

Bddpaux complained about the two of us having a perfectly civil, reasonably productive discussion over on the mosque article, so it looks like perfectly civil discussions aren't allowed on Wikinews. We'd better stop. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:12, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

What I mean is that reporting 'they are investigating' requires making an assumption that during the 2 minutes or 2 days or whatever else the lag is, the investigation did not stop. This is in reply to your last comment here, and has nothing to do with the English language. Gryllida (talk) 03:38, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

You have made it clear that you think it involves making that assumption. Have I made it clear that I think it does not?

If you don't want to wait for this to click for you in time, the only other thing to say would be for you to tell me what kind of source you would find credible. You clearly don't intend to just take my word for it, and I can respect that I may have to run down a resource or two, but I've heard you out too and I'm not convinced. Time to accept it and move on before a third party complains again. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:51, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Re your remark above about "how the English language works". You're pointing at things done in msm and saying "see, they do that, and they get paid for what they're doing, so it must be okay". Which doesn't at all follow, btw; it's ordinary for some poor practice to become ubiquitous in a profession. In this case, it's not about how the English language works, but rather about precise, or imprecise, use of whatever language one uses. Here on en.wn we're very precise in our use of language, and tend to deplore the sloppiness that creeps into msm. It's one of the several areas in which we expect to do better than most of our msm sources. --Pi zero (talk) 13:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

We've been through this already, Pi zero. Accept that I do not agree with you and move on. I've shown my sources and explained my position, and you still have the right to prefer your own opinion to mine. Respect my right to prefer mine to yours.

To outward appearances, you didn't care about this until very recently, approving articles by myself and by other drafters that used present tense in a professional way. Changing your mind isn't a war crime, but you should say "Hey, I changed my mind."

Let me see if we can move on fruitfully. I request your opinion. Scenario: On the talk page, someone proposes a change, in tense, in content. The drafter obeys as you seem to want me to obey. After publication, it becomes clear that the readers were misled, and we have to do a retraction. To your mind, whose fault is it? Suggester or implementor? -Darkfrog24

You're assuming your opinion carries as much weight as @Pi zero:'s. It doesn't. You don't have to agree with anyone to follow the style guide: you just have to accept that you are being asked to do something you disagree with, and find a way to do it. Ca2james (talk) 16:17, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

My opinion actually carries more weight than Pi zero's to me. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:16, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Emphasis on find a way. If there's a problem that needs fixing, how you fix it is up to you. Suppose the existing phrasing isn't SG-compliant because it uses present tense. You consider what would happen if you simply changed the present tense to past tense, and conclude that it would be saying the wrong thing (or that it would be misunderstood, or whatever); well then, that isn't the way you should be fixing it. You should be finding a different way to fix it, that works for you and is SG-compliant. Finding a third way that doesn't have either of two problems is a basic technique for moving things along rapidly and smoothly on Wikinews (or, for that matter, on Wikipedia or most any sister project). --Pi zero (talk) 17:55, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe that it is not SG-compliant.

You didn't believe it was not SG-compliant until this month.

If you want to keep things moving rapidly and smoothly on Wikinews, then accept that I disagree with you and move on. Per WN:WRITE, among other policies and guidelines, I don't have to make changes to articles if I don't want to. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:16, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

• For the point about a third way —which is a matter of collaboration versus obstructionism, and not specific to Wikinews or even to wikis (it's more of a life lesson)— it doesn't even matter whether it's compliant with the style guide. A version isn't okay with user A, another version isn't okay with user B; so when A says the existing version isn't okay, and B changes it, as a matter of common sense B doesn't chance it to a version B isn't okay with. The goal is to find something both are okay with.
• You are creating a long-term-unsupportable burden on reviewers. Nobody's forcing you to write articles in a way that creates that burden; the English language isn't forcing you to; and I don't think you're unable to wield the English language effectively. There are only two ways to "move on": either you contribute without doing that, or you don't contribute. We would greatly prefer the first of those two possibilities, which is why we engage you in dialogue about the matter; but we need one or the other.

--Pi zero (talk) 22:50, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I promised not to revert anyone even if they did something that I think is wrong, so we're good. No obstructionism.

It wasn't an unsupportable burden on reviewers last month. You have had zero problem with drafts like the ones I write at any point in your time on Wikinews.

I cultivate good writing habits for my job. Even if I were willing to produce content with improper English for Wikinews (or anywhere), I am not willing to risk accidentally doing it at work. Please respect this boundary. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:01, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Nobody has told you to use improper English; that's —sorry to be blunt— just silly. You've been making two different kids of statements about this that aren't accurate, and since I've got an instinct to point out inaccuracies I tend to mention both and there's then confusion between the two. You've been saying that people are requiring you to use a certain kind of English, which is false; as I've pointed out repeatedly, you're being told certain things should not be done, and what you do instead is up to you. That's the point that really matters. Quite independent of that, you've been saying that certain constructions (which nobody is requiring you to use) are improper English, when —supposing we are talking about the same thing— they are not. The second point, however, doesn't matter nearly as much exactly because nobody's requiring you to use that particular construction; the concern is to avoid gratuitously switching around between tenses, not to use a specific construction to accomplish that end. --Pi zero (talk) 00:54, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

You and I have a difference of opinion on this matter.

I will continue my pattern of never edit warring and respecting other parties' right to edit and change my work as part of our established collaboration process.

I would like to stop talking about this—for now. People have complained about our talks. We're not getting anywhere, and this issue is too tied in with the creepy power dynamic stuff. I feel like you're trying to get me to say "uncle," and over a matter that no one cared about until very recently. Best to let it sit for a while and come back to it with clear eyes later. Let all of that dissipate. Until then, I plan to, as Bddp put it, "just report the news." If you want to change the tenses, go ahead. I promise no edit warring over this (or anything, as usual). Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:10, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────┘
We can not delay, and the present situation is not a complete solution. To resolve this, in addition to not reverting, I suggest against submitting an article with the present tenses in it for review. Especially for things which are not eternal; "police are investigating" is not, while "Paris is a capital of France" is. Gryllida (talk) 10:45, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I decline your recommendation. This isn't really about the present tense. If it hadn't been that, it would be something else. I'm not a servant or employee.

Time to ask: Would you, Gryllida, rather have no draft at all? Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:32, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd prefer the draft existed in {{develop}} state until and unless it is ready. Gryllida (talk) 01:02, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

That's what I do already. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:07, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Happy Easter, Darkfrog24

Hi Darkfrog24

Happy holidays this Easter (19th to 22th is a long weekend in the UK). I hope you have some great and sweet time with your wonderful friends and family.

Here is a cake for you:

See you around,

--Gryllida (talk) 02:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC) Aw, thanks G! Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:23, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Troll feeding

Regarding that side discussion on the neurosurgery article talk page: please don't feed the troll. --Pi zero (talk) 18:55, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

You think Ssr is a troll? The guy's user history goes back to 2007 and he or she has composed articles for Wikinews. They swear less than that anon and they do more work around here than Ca2James, so I think Ssr should get at least as much patience as the less-deserving of those two. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:04, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Of course they're a troll. I remember when they left, and I see the content of what they say. --Pi zero (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

"Troll" is someone who doesn't mean what they say and is only trying to start a fight. But Ssr's posts could be sincere frustration with our deletion rate, low readership and arguable redundancy with Wikipedia, all of which seems plausible. Also, consider that the post is about Wikinews in general and not any one person.

Speaking of stuff directed at one person, over the years, I've told you to stop encouraging this person and asked you for support against someone who was literally cursing at me. Remember why you said no. I'll keep an eye on Ssr in case they do something trollish but no I won't promise not to talk to them.

If Ssr declines to talk about solutions, then perhaps he or she should be invited to blow off that steam somewhere else, but just pointing out a problem isn't trolling. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, like this guy. That's a troll. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:50, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

You're misjudging Ssr's motives. --Pi zero (talk) 20:31, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Could be. I don't know the guy that well. I'm judging based on what I see. If the guy starts cussing at you or making trouble, I'll be all for taking action, but I've seen people say way worse things here on Wikinews. Let's not make a bigger deal wondering about what Ssr might do. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:38, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

You care way too much about cussing. I'm interested in content. --Pi zero (talk) 20:47, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

The reason I focus so much on cursing is that it isn't subjective. Is "$#@%" a curse word? Yes it is/no it's not. No quibbling. Someone can write something just as bad without using curse words. But Ssr didn't. Like I said, if he starts making trouble, I'll support asking him to take it somewhere else, but he hasn't started making trouble. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Of course curse words are subjective. Just ask whether "bullshit", in the Frankfurtian sense, is a curse word. And yes Ssr is making trouble. --Pi zero (talk) 21:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

What trouble? Is something happening off the talk page somewhere? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:12, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Ssr opposes fact check prior to publishing. I do not think there is anything constructive to say to them, that they do not know. Gryllida (talk) 23:33, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Well he didn't say anything anti-fact-checking when I was around.

Right now, this conversation is longer than the exchange between Ssr and me. If he really is as rotten as you say then I'll see it for myself soon enough, and if he doesn't act rotten, then it's all of our gain. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:41, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

It is my understanding that he favours quick publishing over completing the fact check correctly, particularly in the cases when fact check takes over two weeks. Perhaps it is not obvious from his words, but here you have my understanding. Gryllida (talk) 00:18, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Okay, that's what we shouldn't bring up in front of Ssr, then. If Ssr thinks anyone is saying, "Hey, do you still hold that WRONG and STUPID position that we should publish quickly and not do our wonderful, PERFECT review?" S will be tempted to go, "That's not wrong or stupid and review's not perfect!! YES I DO!!" If we're worried he's here to start a fight, no need to start it ourselves. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:24, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

I've already brought this point up in their sight, twice: here and also at their talk page. In both places, I would openly admit that 1) our reviewing practices are not perfect, 2) work is in progress to improve them, and 3) while people suggesting to abolish peer review altogether is not uncommon it should be done elsewhere. Gryllida (talk) 00:33, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Inviting S to be part of the solution. I like it. That's pretty much what I did on the Neuroscience article talk page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:53, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

I think that their personal talk page can be a more appropriate venue, as 1) the discussion topic is not related to that particular article, and 2) their tone is a bit toxic and discouraging suggesting that it is better to bring it up in a place that is less likely to be read by others (articles talk pages are read more often than contributors' personal talk pages).

In either case as this contributor has started out in a toxic way, they might fail to have a constructive response, and a sysop may have to terminate the discussion (in either venue) with a request to not continue unless a constructive solution is found. I hope you are able to cooperate with such a request in the case it is required. Gryllida (talk) 01:04, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Please don't make this about whether I'm going to obey like a good little doggie. That bothers me a lot. Makes me feel the need to prove you wrong. Just don't go there. The power dynamic here is weird enough. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:09, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

┌───────────────────────┘
I am asking for your cooperation in the case a sysop considers that further continuation of a discussion with ssr is unproductive. This is a common shared goal of improving this site, that leads to all involved parties winning in the case it is successful.

This is in contrast to little dogs being asked to obey, of which they receive no gain. Gryllida (talk) 01:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

After having sent this I now think that there is nothing wrong in little dogs obeying what they are told. They receive gain in the form of less stick punishments, more food rewards, and more time spent doing enjoyable things with their owner in the case they spend less time training.

Obeying is something children do in a family and it usually is a healthy commitment of children to the relationship. The same occurs in the relationship of a teacher with a student and is also a healthy feature; on the contrary, children and students who do not obey can be a problem.

This does not exclude the possibility of the children, or students, raising their concerns about rules in case they want to improve them. I've seen many cases in which a student or a child communicated with their supervisor and came to mutual agreement about a new modified set of rules to obey. Gryllida (talk) 01:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

And I'm saying "don't ask." When you put on airs and tell me what to do as you so often to, I have to either obey you and let you think I'm your servant or make a point of not obeying you so that you don't. Do not put me in that position. Talk to Ssr if you want to. Don't if you don't. Leave me out of your plans.

EDIT CONFLICT: THAT IS THE PROBLEM. We don't have an obedience relationship. I'm not your dog, your kid, your student or your employee, but you keep acting as if I were. On several subjects, such as English writing, I find I know more than you do. I'd give you lessons, adult-to-adult if you wanted. You could go find some actual children or dogs and cultivate their obedience, but do not expect me to play pretend.

Leave me out of your plans for Ssr. If I see a conversation and want to participate, I will, like I did with De W's unblock request. Right now, I don't think S did or said anything wrong on the article talk, and I think you aren't doing such a bad thing by asking him if he has any ideas for how to improve Wikinews, but do not ask me to commit to any plans. I don't make promises when I do not know what they will entail. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:58, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Comparing obedience with that of a little doggie implies lack of trust to its owner with the judgments that they are making. Is that so? Gryllida (talk) 04:21, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

I usually enjoy theoretical discussions, but other people have complained about them here on Wikinews. Before this goes any further, what do you want to accomplish with this conversation? Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:23, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm exploring your perception of obeying as a humiliating kind of interaction. I want to learn more from you about this angle. Gryllida (talk) 04:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

To address the complaints (if you care), there is live chat, for which I personally recommend Quassel IRC. The downside is lack of transparency, as only a dozen or two people at most will be able to read our discussions. The upside is that it is in real time, and information can be shared quickly. Gryllida (talk) 04:41, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't feel like doing that right now. Perhaps some other time. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:44, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

┌───────────────────────┘
Does that apply to live chat only, or to the exploration of the obedience as well? Gryllida (talk) 04:45, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Both, yes. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:48, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

This may involve your continued exposure to requests which may leave both sides unhappy (the requester unhappy with your lack of obedience, and you unhappy with being asked in the first place). Are you sure you want this to continue to occur, as an alternative to a peaceful discussion in which I try to identify the core of this disagreement without adding any restrictions? Gryllida (talk) 04:54, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Simple: Stop making such requests. There is no need for you to do so. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:57, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

As a direct consequence of our functions as admins and reviewers, we routinely make requests ranging from mild suggestions and advice, through strong suggestions and advice, all the way up to requirements. None of which are this mindless-obedience thing you've repeatedly described. All evidence suggests you don't grok any form of obedience other than the mindless/abject sort, creating a serious handicap for you and major problems for others here as well. (This evidently isn't the only significant difficulty you've having here that's causing problems; but it's one of them.) --Pi zero (talk) 21:05, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

And yet you get so irritated when I refer to reviewers as my equals. Pi zero, when you want to know what I do and don't grok, ask me to tell you what I'm thinking. I've had my eyes open and it has become clear that the "treat reviewers like teachers/sources" model is inappropriate because the reviewers are, among other problems, not sufficiently consistent with written policy, each other, or themselves over time. Not a war crime, but not usable either.

The review process appears to be the only time that obedience or hierarchy of any kind is endorsed by written Wikinews policy, and then it does so in limited fashion—Gryllida's authority is over articles, not people. Right here, however, Gryllida is telling me, "Do you promise to support action against Ssr, a person whom you've seen do nothing wrong, even if it should happen that Ssr is right and the sysop is wrong?" and I'm saying "Don't put me in that position. Leave me out of it."

If Ssr really is so rotten, S will do something rotten where I can see sooner or later, but considering I've seen you cry troll about people who merely did not agree with you, it stands to reason that that may be all Ssr did. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

There is no "and yet" involved. I was addressing a single difficulty, one that had just been mentioned and whose resolution, if achieved, could lead to improvements even if other difficulties remained unresolved. Specifically, you evidently do not function effectively in the sorts of asymmetric collaboration involved. The collaborative difficulty might (potentially) be addressed even if other difficulties remain in place, and some of those other difficulties (such as the "and yet" you mention) might be more intractable as long as the collaboration difficulty remains.

I lack confidence in your estimation that I've 'cried troll about people who merely did not agree with me'. --Pi zero (talk) 22:40, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Me. You said it about me. You called my essays trolling, and they're not. I know because I was with me when I wrote them. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

If we continue like this, you don't trust anything I say. Gryllida (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

(1) Gryllida (talk) 23:08, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Basically you are saying "When you have a suggestion that I take a different course of action, such as stop talking with ssr after I started it, or start adding information to a draft that I did not plan to add previously, I do not want you to make these requests. I want to stay isolated, continue to do what I am doing, and do not need any such advice." In my opinion this alienates you from others. I am proposing that you utilize the energy of others to your own benefit: I think this can lead to you learning new things that you did not know before, as well as accomplishing goals that you would be unable to accomplish previously.

• For instance, when they ask some work to be done and it seems too massive, you show appreciation and invite them to do a part of the task.
• For instance, when they ask you to stop doing something, you show appreciation and invite them to address problems which seem to be unresolved, which you originally wanted to address by continuing your original activity.

I am seeing both of these kind of interactions good for you, as well as for others. Of course, for these wonderful things to occur, you should show that you believe that my completion of a part of a task would be appreciated by you and you believe my output would be accurate and useful, and that you believe that my suggestion to stop a particular activity is worthwhile and you are willing to address the original problem together in a more efficient way. Gryllida (talk) 00:24, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Currently I see no indication of your belief that output of my work is valuable. Same with Pi zero's reviews of your articles. If they are unappreciated or unwanted, they can stop. Gryllida (talk) 00:26, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

The review isn't for me. It's for the reader. It doesn't matter if I appreciate it or not.

This is an amateur website, and although Pi zero once guessed (correctly) that I have professional experience, we are all acting in amateur capacity. In that way, we are all equals. Asymmetrical collaboration doesn't work because no one is better than anyone else.

Gryllida, let's flip this around: Look here. You can probably tell I've been in science news for a long time, long before I came to Wikinews. I know a lot about it that you don't. By cramming yourself into a position of artificial superiority, by putting on airs with "no no no reviewers are teachers and drafters are students," you lose the chance to improve because you have put yourself in a frame of mind where the lowly drafters are being bad if they correct you. If you think of all of us here as colleagues, then you're ready to see what everyone has to offer.

To bring this back to the original issue, I think you and I have very different ideas of conflict resolution. But in this case, you and I both did the same thing: ask Ssr if S knew of any solutions to the problems raised.

I'll state what I want from this conversation: For it to end. Any final words before we let all this cook in our heads for a while? Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:01, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

In any social group, everyone is better than you, otherwise you have no value from participating in the group. Gryllida (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I do not think I have ever heard that particular idea before. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:49, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

To be more precise, everyone is better than you at something. (To my knowledge, suggesting that people completely avoid directing you in your work implies they are worse than you at everything; a position that is doomed to fail, unless a person is working in absence of others.) Gryllida (talk) 02:23, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

But learning is not the primary goal of Wikinews. Writing the news for our readers is. That some of our drafters and reviewers may learn a few things occasionally is a side benefit. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Does each act of accepting a learning opportunity --ideally every time one is offered-- lead to more effective news writing? Gryllida (talk) 04:54, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Around here? No. As I said, usually, the only thing one can learn is what that reviewer happens to want in that moment. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:12, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Is the seeming inconsistency of reviewer feedback a result of your perception? It seems introducing you to a concept in written discussion repeatedly and consistently results in your annoyance rather than your noting it down somewhere. I don't think this annoyance should occur. Gryllida (talk) 12:22, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

No, it is not my imagination or perception. Remember, I can go back and look at previous articles. You've seen me do it. I'm not working from memory.

Also, about reviewers saying things more than once and my finding it annoying. Consider this: Reviewer Robby says "You spelled that word wrong. It's 'greh,' not 'gray'!" and I say "Nope, it really is 'gray.' The other option is 'grey.' Here's a dictionary." Then Reviewer Robby tells me two weeks later, "STOP SPELLING 'GREH' WRONG!" Of course I'm going to be annoyed. So if you told me something more than once, maybe you just didn't convince me that you were right. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:31, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes I think it is a problem of not convincing. Not a problem of reviewers being whimsical or wanting one thing today and another tomorrow. So since you read the same thing from reviewers multiple times you can put effort into reaching agreement, it is a process that both sides need to work on not only reviewers themselves. Gryllida (talk) 19:13, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

That's only the case in situations where there isn't a clear right/wrong, like when it's only a matter of opinion on both sides. If I have a dictionary that says "gray"/"grey" (and lots of source articles and previous Wikinews articles that spell the color that way) and Reviewer Robby doesn't, then no it is not on both sides. I do not have to come to agreement with Reviewer Robby. Reviewer Robby needs to educate himself. If Reviewer Rachel and Reviewer Richard also say "No! It's 'greh'!! Spell it the way Master Robby told you to, or else we'll punish you! Now apologize to Master Robby for lecturing him." then all three of them need to educate themselves. Or they are playing a creepy game in which I have not agreed to participate.

Key issue: Sources. Dictionaries. Wikinews articles. Professional articles. You'll notice I'm not asking Reviewer Robby to take my word for it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:24, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't informing him to the point of reaching agreement make news writing more efficient? --Gryllida (talk) 20:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I think this conversation has turned productive. You have asked a good question.

The issue is that I can't make Robby agree with me. Robby should look at the dictionary and say to himself, "It really isn't 'greh' after all! Even if I never admit that I was wrong, I will also never tell drafters to spell it 'greh' ever again. I'll drop the matter" but usually Robby goes "Dictionaries don't count!" and if you show him a previous Wikinews article/written policy/etc. instead he'll go, "Those don't count either!"

My options are then either 1) obey like a dog/slave/servant/Waylon Smithers/etc., lie and tell Robby I agree with him and do a disservice to the reader and embarrass Wikinews by putting 'greh' and Robby's other mistakes in the article, 2) waste my time and patience by coddling Robby like a nursemaid, taking away "gray" and writing a bulky, unnecessary "color between light black and dark white" workaround just because Robby, or 3) show Robby the source once or twice but then accept that he disagrees with me and say "I will not spell it 'greh.' I will explain why not again if you want" and then drop the matter. Assertive but not aggressive.

Now if you can think of a 4) that'd be great, but it has to be something I can do. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I find options (1)-(3) unacceptable with (3) being the worst. Option (4) can be continuing to inform Robby until agreement is reached. Gryllida (talk) 22:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

So in your eyes, I should 4) tell Robby over and over that he is wrong, linking to the dictionary/Wikinews policy every time until he is finally worn down and caves in? That does not happen.

What happens is that Robby will run to the disciplinary system and say "Darkfrog24 is harassing me! Darkfrog24 always tells me I'm wrong even though I'm a reviewer, and that means I'm always right! Darkfrog24 is being disruptive by not agreeing with me! Darkfrog24 is disrespecting me by thinking a dictionary knows spelling better than I do!" Here on Wikinews I have been blamed for "disruption" when I showed evidence. You were there. You saw. On Wikipedia, I even had someone claim I was lying, that I'd made up the information in the sources I showed and I really did get punished even though I had those sources right there to show.

So I will stick to 3). Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:55, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

You really dislike this Robby, don't you? "Telling over and over that he is wrong" is REALLY not handy. Could you just ask him, "what dictionaries do you use?" and look up the word there and show the results to him. Gryllida (talk) 23:47, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Reviewer Robby is a useful fiction. But the things he does are real.

I tried that and it doesn't work. You may remember my asking "Do you guys have any sources that back up your position?" in previous disputes. You remember what happened next, don't you? It was either some version of "I don't need a source" or "you just don't understand." I think I understand just fine. Asking for sources only works when the other person can say "Yes, I have a source; here it is!" but that almost never happens. Again, your form of conflict resolution requires me to depend on the other person acting in a certain way. I can't make them go find a source that might not even exist.

May I suggest a 12-hour break so that this conversation does not flood the "recent changes" link? Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:00, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Do you really dislike the fictional Robby? The fictional response that you have provided to him was really anything but handy. Two things.

1) I think that when a person does not trust a dictionary and you ask them which dictionaries they trust, "I don't need a source" is invalid. It is their own fault that they refused to accept your source; the burden of sharing what sources they find acceptable is on them. If they do say 'I don't need a source', just ask them, "Do you really not trust any dictionaries? I don't think this is the case, and indeed it would also make it very difficult to come to agreement about spelling. Please tell me how to choose a dictionary that we could both use."

2) "You just don't understand" is in my opinion easy to act on: just say "I really want to understand. I will do my best. Please explain it to me." Gryllida (talk) 00:27, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I will sit here for 12 hours, until 12:27 26 April UTC, and not add any new messages until then. Gryllida (talk) 00:28, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I realize I did just ask Pi zero to ask me what I was thinking if he wanted me to know, so I'd be a big patootie if I rebuffed you for doing exactly that. But we should slow down so that we don't clog the RC for other Wikinewsies. On a larger Wikiproject it wouldn't matter but it does here. I composed this reply last night and waited to post it.

In the past few years, studies have shown that offering people evidence that contradicts their opinions just makes them dig in harder: Science information [ New Yorker] The Atlantic article says "The people who dismiss your claims, or even those who just ask how you know, are not people you can count on to automatically side with you no matter what," and that is what is happening here, I think. I make it very clear that no I won't side with people based on identity, but that's what's wanted. EDIT: The more I read this Atlantic article, the more useful I find it. I recommend it highly.

Fictional Reviewer Robby allows me to describe the kinds of things that reviewers do around here without targeting any one person. If I say "the time Acagastya did this" or "the time you did that" or "when Pi zero said the other thing" it would be more confrontational than necessary. Robby is a useful fiction.

Yes, I agree that "I don't need a source" is invalid. But it has happened, both on Wikipedia and here on Wikinews, and the parties have told me why they do not trust dictionaries/other sources. I have asked Pi zero to write down his underlying principles many times. He has said he does not know how to put them to words. I have come to believe that they do not exist.

So I guess what I'm saying is that your ideas aren't bad, but I tried them many times and they did not work. The more I think about and experience this type of conflict, the more I think the best thing to do is expose people to the resources they need to educate themselves and then let them do it at their own pace. Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:55, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
While you say "I tried them many times and they did not work", now I have suggested you new ways how to respond to "I do not need a source" and "You do not understand". To the latter, "please write your underlying principles" does not work; "I will try to understand. I will do my best. Please explain it to me." could possibly work better. Would you like to give it a try?

Yes, Robby is useful fiction. I am glad that we have him here. Gryllida (talk) 01:36, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I have already tried something similar to that already, though a little less servile in tone. It was more like, "Take your time. Whenever you feel like writing it down, I'll read it. No hurry." I don't think it's a dumb idea; that's why I tried it, but it does not work. I think we must simply accept that we have differing views and work around them.

Did you get a chance to read the Atlantic article? I already knew a little bit about the issue, but it was a real eye-opener all the same. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:41, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Is there anything servile in emphasising your commitment to trying to understand, and your clear wish that they please explain it to you? In my opinion these two points are key, and a clear signal of your dignity, whereas your response nearly misses them. Gryllida (talk) 20:02, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes there is.

Part of the problem is reviewers putting on airs. Claiming to know better or to be better than other contributors here, whether they really do or not. If we all treated each other as colleagues most of the time it would not matter if I said something a little submissive once in the while; it would be interpreted, correctly, as excess politeness. But there is this game of pretend going on, and I do not want people to think I have consented to play.

Did you get a chance to look at the Atlantic article? I cannot recommend it highly enough. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	Thanks for collaboration. Your help was very timely. If it were not for your support, I would not have completed my work. Дмитрий Кошелев (talk) 06:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I love barnstars! Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:50, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

do it yourself

Hi Darkfrog24

I'm quite offended at "I mean it looks like Gryllida made this suggestion just because G feels like suggesting something, feels like getting involved and having a hand in and having the article reflect his/her own voice and vision. I'm fine with that, so long as G does it him/herself, and I'm trying to be polite about it." at Talk:Newly discovered theropod shows another avenue to flight, say scientists. It is disappointing when others not only forget that my suggestions are not out of my personal pride or authority but for the benefit of the readers whom I want to make more informed, but also when others expect that questions which I ask are well within my competence to address in the story myself. While this can be the case for many stories, clearly this is not the case here. I appreciate you asking me to confirm this, which I did.

--Gryllida (talk) 01:19, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry to offend you, then, but I'm surprised to hear you say that's not why you made the suggestion. It really does look like that's what's going on.

If you believe a given change is to the benefit of the readers, then why not just make it? Why go on the talk page and ask me to do it? If you're uncertain, why not make the change yourself and then start a talk page thread? Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:28, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

argument

Hi Darkfrog24

When you want to persuade someone about that point -- 'paper says' -- why not start with asking the other person what do they think of the concept and of your source? Do you really need to start your response with "you are wrong"? I think this is something people learn at a very young age before they commence school. It is a more important and fundamental concept than names of dinos and the eras. Is this not so?

I'm just asking, because not only lack of your usage of this principle is decreasing the efficiency of interactions with peers and reviewers, but also explaining this to you is a laborious task. I don't think many people undertake it. I just wanted to quickly check whether you are aware of the procedure.

I am hoping that your answer is not "But asking them for an opinion about my concept is me being a slave. I do not want to do that.". If this is the case, just write 'Yes, it is.' and do not put effort into spelling it out; then I will attempt finding supporting documentation.

Thanks and regards, --Gryllida (talk) 07:48, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Are you talking about the "you happen to be mistaken" that I said to Pi zero?

Pi zero has already told me what he thinks of the concept and of sources—he's not impressed with them. Why ask a question that he has already answered?

The goal of that post is not to persuade him. It's to just make an offer of a source quickly so he can say no and we can move on.

I don't expect Pi zero to be persuaded. Remember the Atlantic article I showed you about how offering people proof doesn't tend to change their minds? I don't know what to do other than offer proof, so that's what I'll do until I think of something else.

If you mean there is some persuasion technique that you know about that would be appropriate here on Wikinews, please do toss me a link to an article about it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:22, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Gryllida/Persuasion maybe for a good start, if you are interested in persuading and not just spending time. Gryllida (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Persuasion or everyone just accepting that we disagree with each other and moving on.

When people expect me to believe that I'm wrong/stupid/etc. with no proof, I feel a disrespected. Showing me proof would be easy. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:00, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Wait a second, "Persuasion" was the link! I checked out your essay and I like it. I think on this particular issue, Pi zero and I are both dug in. There's emotional baggage attached, but it's got some good stuff for preventing new conflicts from becoming entrenched. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Technical note -- Links are colored in blue here. Sometimes people also mark them in bold.

I'm glad you like it. Thanks for sharing that. Gryllida (talk) 02:05, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

How you read news

I would like to read news every day, and am looking for help. How do you read your news? What software do you use? (I use mPages RSS client for Firefox, but I would be happy to learn what you use.) --Gryllida (talk) 00:22, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I use Firefox too, G. I like the Guardian and subscribe to the New York Times, but I got ideas for some good Wikinews reports bu listening to NPR in the car. -Darkfrog

Fram incident on English Wikipedia

Hi Darkfrog24,

I have not been around here for a long time. I gave up trying to contribute, but was thinking of you recently when I stumbled on this wiki-controversy and saw it was being covered by slate, buzzfeed and breitbart, and particularly by The Signpost which has devoted to it several articles (one of which has been deleted) in the last two issues. Freshness should not be an issue with statements continuing to be made by Jimbo, WMF, Arbcom, you name it.

I personally believe that more mainstream news sources would cover this story if they could figure out what was going on. Wikipedia has become too much of an old boys network with a secret language that few can follow. It is open and transparent only to insiders.

I also believe that Wikipedia has arrived at the fork in the road. How they resolve this may mean life or death to this movement.

So how about it? Up to the challenge? Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 06:14, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Do you mean you want someone to draft an article about the Fram business? Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:38, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. Not sure what you mean by draft an article - is this wiki-news terminology? What I was hoping for is a wiki-news story explaining this incident which is very confusing, not only to people who do not understand wikipedianese, but also to most people who are totally immersed in it. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:36, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Re drafting an article, see the first pillar at Wikinews:Pillars of writing.

Also to keep in mind, Wikinews:Newsworthiness#The Wikimedia exception. (No, I'm not saying we couldn't cover it.)

I've been thinking myself this is a crucial moment. It's also a really intense exercise in Wikinews:Neutrality. --Pi zero (talk) 15:18, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for dropping by @Pi zero. I don't have the time at the moment to read the information you linked to, and am glad to see that you are not completely ruling out a wikinews story. A well-written and vetted story about this incident, even though a challenge as you say, can be used as a source for articles on the topic at various wikipedias. The English wikipedia community has afded its copy because at the time there were not enough RSes but there are at least two other wikipedias that have allowed it, for now. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 15:42, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Ottawahitech, "drafting" means writing the article draft. But I'm afraid you haven't confirmed that it's the Fram business you mean. I'd love to see some links to the articles you mentioned. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:03, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes,do, I mean the Fram business. Links to Wikipedia articles can be located through Wikidata. Links to the individual articles at the signpost are on enwiki. Google does a great job of finding everything else, at least for me (not sure if it provides the same links to others). I would love to have the time to provide those links, but I am on an unreliable connection, on an unreliable device, and to top it all some software keeps changing what I type. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 01:08, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Nasty! Good luck, man. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Dupdet

I'm a bit concerned about how, well, anyone might use dupdet if set loose with it without... some sort of guidance or something; not sure what would be effective. We specifically and particularly do not want people to think in terms of only avoiding verbatim copying, as that might lead to copying with word-level subsitutitons here and there — synonyms, verb forms, and the like — which does not avoid accusations of plagiary. It's all more frustrating, from my perspective as a reviewer, because we want our reviewer edits to provide intensive feedback to reporters on what to do differently, but in the case of distance-from-source the best solutions involve extensive medium-to-large-scale rearrangements of text, which reviewers are not allowed to do as they'd then have to disqualify themselves. It's a puzzle, how most effectively to encourage best practices. Thoughts? --Pi zero (talk) 13:52, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Solution: ESSAY!!

If you want people on Wikinews to do things a certain way, write an essay advocating that way of acting. It might become a guideline or policy one day.

You and I have had our differences, Pi zero. We still have them, in fact, but you have seen me use and quote your essays with enthusiasm. An essay with examples is a wonderfully non-confrontational way to show a reporter what you want. Perhaps you and I could work on one together. I do have an anti-plagiarism scpiel that I wrote for some students that might do to start. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:58, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Pi zero: Okay, I've got the skeleton of an essay up. Let 'er rip! Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

[Decanting some thoughts on this subject. Keeping in mind, time for writing essays comes out of development time for dialog and dialog-based tools which, in turn, comes out of time for review...]

Though I do like a good essay —they have their place— I feel it's not always the most effective way to deliver how-to knowledge. Depending on the circumstances and the recipient. I'd actually been thinking about other means. However, yes, an essay could be useful. In this case, it's been discussed, and attempted at least twice that I know of, over many years. There was brianmc's attempt, at Wikinews:Plagiarism; as we're discussing composition of essays, there's also some interesting discussion on its talk page (noting, my own attitude toward his essay has matured since). He had in mind not so much a how-two guide as something to convey the importance of taking it seriously. And then there's my own effort: User:Pi zero/essays/How to use sources without plagiary. Over the years I've discussed that essay, mostly I think with BRS, but the discussion has probably largely been off-wiki, or scattered here and there so there'd be no way of recovering the concrete record. To explain where my thinking for it started: A remark I've sometimes heard from others, and thought a few times myself, is "but there isn't any other way of saying it!"; not envisioning what else to do seems to be an especially common, difficult, and frustrating experience for anyone trying to use sources without plagiarizing them, to which it's just adding insult to injury to then be told, when one goes looking for help, "write it in your own words" (or, "use your own words"). The question is, how do I do that? For which I found a startlingly illuminating experience was the first time I reviewed one of BRS's synthesis articles. Synthesis sentences often drew information from widely scattered points in the sources, and source sentences often contained facts that got distributed to widely scattered points in the synthesis, resulting in a whole that was remarkably straightforward to verify from the sources yet didn't remotely resemble any of the sources at any level from overall organization down through paragraph and sentence structure to lower-level wordings. I was reminded, actually, of the difference between listening to a Joplin rag and playing it, where from the inside one can see the structure of the thing in a way that just isn't visible (or, not to me anyway) from the outside. I wished there were a way to share this inside view with newcomers struggling to understand the scope of possibilities for "using your own words". I imagined presenting in parallel a synthesis text and two sources, with highlighting to show which parts correspond to each other, and letting the reader click on different parts of the text to select which parts they want to see correspondences for. Two major troubles with this idea were the lack of suitably interactive wiki pages, which resulted in my setting that essay aside in favor of spending a bunch of years developing interactivity, and the lack of two sources for use in such an illustration that could be hosted on the wiki without (ironically) copyright violation. I hit on the idea of using something from fiction old enough to be in the public domain, which is how I got started on the example that's under construction for the essay. --Pi zero (talk) 19:20, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Hm, not terrible...

What I put in my essay about the tool was "Dupdet looks like it's a way to identify duplicate text so it can be rephrased. But you should use it to count stretches of duplicate text. If you've got more than two, overhaul the article." Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. Two things that come to mine for me about dupdet: (1) the word-sequences it detects are often clues to much longer passages that differ from the source only by superficial word-level substitutions, so that a human has to study the dupdet output with an eye to similarities of context; and (2) when rephrasing is wanted, it's important to include structural rearrangements in what one does rather than applying mere word-level substitutions. The word-level-substitution-isn't-adequate theme I've found important to emphasize.

Notice the pattern, in these three essays (brianmc's, mine, yours)? The pattern I see is that everyone has a different idea of what should go into an essay on this subject. :p  It matters partly because it greatly retards exporting ideas from one such essay to another. There are some facets of your arrangement I quite like, but have no immediate clue how to integrate with my own essay.

I notice, btw, one of your examples involves saying that "Coolest Reliable News described Smith's actions as very brace", but that's not a good example because it's a subjective call by the news source and, therefore, we wouldn't report it except in those rare situations where the news source becomes part of the story. --Pi zero (talk) 02:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Iranian article

Sorry this article didn't make it. I am deleting it soon, if you want to paste some/all of it over into a sandbox page for later reference. Your call. --Bddpaux (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Which Iranian article? Thanks for the heads-up. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Can't remember the exact name, but it appears to be gone now. Just added the Aband template to your Brazilians article as well, if you want to do the same.--Bddpaux (talk) 18:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Eh, Wikinews is pretty much a "freshness be a harsh mistress" site. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:38, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Sao Paulo

works because it's not actually the cat, it's a mainspace redirect to the cat. --Pi zero (talk) 13:41, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it quickly became clear it was the tilde above the a in "Sao." A common issue with cats here on Wikinews. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

We do consider it an acceptable style choice to use the no-diacritics form in an article. Though I can understand wanting the usage in the article to match the category tag. (Myself, I no longer see the two as linked, after much cat-work.) --Pi zero (talk) 15:17, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights Survey

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Category:Fish

Did I get the science bits correct in setting up this category? Cheers, --SVTCobra 05:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Ditto for Category:Sharks --SVTCobra 07:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

They look okay to me. There's a bit of a kerfluffle in the taxonomy community about "fish," but the bottom line is that we're communicating with our readers, who are likely to define fish in the manner popularly understood. (Short version, a lungfish and ceaolocanth are both more closely related to humans than to tuna, but we still classify them all as fish. Here, enjoy some pictures.) Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:35, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra, Darkfrog24: If there's a kerfuffle, our readers — who are research-y enough to go to the category — should basically know that. This is getting heavy for the intro, so maybe shorten the intro and put some stuff in a usage note? --Pi zero (talk) 20:53, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I think the definition of "fish" currently given in the category's lede is good and will satisfy anyone who knows about the kerfluffle, though perhaps I misspoke in calling it such. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I reworked it a bit, retaining the same elements, but hopefully making it a bit more clear. As a side note, my impression was lungfish were long ago not considered like other fish and if there was any recent reclassification it involved hagfish. Anyway, that's just a layman's impression from the far, far sidelines. Cheers, --SVTCobra 21:39, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

The only rule about English that doesn't change over time is "write for your audience." If someone comes to Wikinews and wants to read about lungfish, will they expect them to be listed under "Fish"? I think that yes they will. If that changes ten years from now, we update the category, but I consider our audience well served with the layman's impression. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

The question isn't whether lungfish get listed under Category:Fish. The question is whether someone who is researching in our archives ought to be made aware that there may be some instability over the meaning of the term. --Pi zero (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

So far, said instability is strictly about cladistics. Again, not something our readership is likely to care about. It might enter the popular consciousness eventually, but it isn't there now. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Popular consciousness isn't the issue, nor is expert consciousness. Possible discrepancy between the two, though, is just the sort of thing one mentions in a usage note. (It looks as if it now reads somewhere along those lines, giving the researcher something of a heads-up. I'm kind of appalled by the absurd balooning of taxa in recent years; "superclasses within the subphylum", indeed. What ever happened to "King Philip Came Over For Good Soup"?) --Pi zero (talk) 04:54, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

It was replaced with "Kermit and Piggy Cursed Our Filthy Gym Shorts." Honestly, though? Genomics. Back when cladistics was getting started, people barely knew about genetic associations. They did the best they could and classified animals based on observable traits. However, with fish, there's the fact that there are only so many ways to move through water efficiently. Even birds have a bunch of different body types that work reasonable well for different niches. With aquatic organisms it's tail-up-and-down, tail-side-to-side, or manta ray. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

"okay, I hit review on this once last night and once this morning, and the request didn't go through TWICE"

As the maintainer of the software that implements that button, I need to know as much as I can about any problems with it. What did these request-not-going-through incidents look like? --Pi zero (talk) 17:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

They looked normal. The last-night time, I don't remember if I hit the review button or went into the code and changed "develop" to "review," but the this-morning time I definitely hit the button. I didn't turn off my computer or close the window until after the process appeared to have completed, taking me to the next screen. It looked like it had gone through, like always. In the Newsroom screen, the title still appeared under "Development," but some lag in that is normal. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:02, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Very strange. Btw, there is a "refresh" button in the newsroom that brings it up-to-date. --Pi zero (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Okay, here is a further thought on this, fwiw: The dialog tools are client-side software; that is, they run on your machine. So if you don't actually see the modified page with the {{review}} tag on it, it's a good bet the operation hasn't completed yet. --Pi zero (talk) 14:48, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Three tips

Three tips (which I hope will be useful for you not in just this one story but also in others)

1) Similarity of structure

I would like to remark here that the similarity of some passages to sources -- not in phrases but in the order that they go one after another -- is quite troubling. There is parargaph

"Police said they were called to Fishmonger's Hall shortly before 2 p.m. local time, where Khan had attended a conference on criminal justice and prisoner rehabilitation, called "Learning Together," run by the University of Cambridge's Institute of Criminology. Khan had been wearing a fake suicide vest, police said, adding that the attack started inside Fishmonger's Hall. Khan stabbed "a number of people" inside the hall, police said, and The Times reported that one of the two killed died inside the hall. " (source)

"According to police, they were called to Fishmonger's Hall at Cambridge University around 2:00 p.m. local time. The University had been hosting a program called "Learning Together" for criminals wishing to rehabilitate. Khan was attending a related event. Police also said that Khan claimed to be wearing a suicide vest, though it was later found to be a harmless fake. " (yours)

As it is a feature of author rather than article I am commenting about it here. It is a bad mix of background with details without connection between these pieces. Can you please avoid this?

2) Missing details

Also some important details about the third person removing the knife and police surrounding the criminal with guns out are missing in the wikinews report. I hope this is not on purpose...

3) Attribution

Also it is important to note where the information comes from - lots of the information about how the event went is either from police or from social media and the source of each information should be stated clearly for the readers to be aware.

Thanks, Gryllida (talk) 22:47, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Move alert

Hi. In case if you were working on the CDC article and have not saved your edit, I have moved it to US Centers for Disease Control sends measles experts to Tonga, Fiji, American Samoa. Don't lose your edits.
•–• 18:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Acagastya: This was most conscientious of you; thanks. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:42, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Oops

sorry, didn't mean to interrupt if you're editing the article. --Pi zero (talk) 14:01, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

If you mean the stampede article, I was done. A single-edit thing. A felt-like-a-single-edit thing. You are conscientious as ever, Pi zero. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)