Wikinews:Water cooler
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Wikinews news
- The new members of the Arbitration Committee were announced earlier this month. See here for its newest members.
- There was another irc meeting on Sunday, April 24 (log). See Wikinews:IRC workshop for more information and future meetings.
- There was an irc meeting on April 10, prompting lots of succesful discussion. See logs.
- Discussion taking place about Speedy Deleting some article redirects
- Things needing doing:
Accreditation requests: 1 Requests for permissions: 0 Flagged revs requests: 0 Bot requests: 1 FA candidates: 3 Deletion: 0 Articles needing review: 1 Developing articles: 9 Flagged discussions: 2 Quiz: create one! Edit
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Policy
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Policies and guidelines and the Style guide contain or link to most of the current en.Wikinews policies and guidelines, however policy is based on the accepted practices of the day on Wikinews, often these might not be written down. This section of the Water cooler focuses on discussions regarding policy issues.
You may wish to check the archives to see if a subject has been raised previously.
Handwriting becoming mandatory
I'm... distressed to see what seems to be a move to require handwritten notes for OR. Handwritten notes, scanned or photographed, are cool where applicable. But to require them? I have a perfectly good keyboard. I can type whilst on the phone. Why is it somehow more trustworthy if I write it down (and bugger about photographing still life, given I'm geared up for landscapes and macro, and frankly too poor a photographer and too out of practice to easily force my setup to do something that is neither, and then bugger about some more because IIRC Commons won't take Cannon RAW files)? If what I write is untrue, I can write the same misinformation on paper just as readily. The main difference is that it is slower than typing. A secondary difference is that if I am writing fast (a requirement for notes), it is illegible. A lot of people claim to have illegible handwriting and do not; I have weak, double-jointed fingers and can only write legibly with time and effort. The new craze seems to be to actively discourage, even disallow, redoing these in the instantly-accessible format that is the typed word. This is a dangerous policy shift that would ban me from doing OR and in-turn likely lead me to retirement. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 11:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. Requiring handwritten notes is going too far.
The last review on that page crosses the line. - Note, there are two earlier points that might appear to cross the line, but really don't.
- Early on the page, DragonFire1024 asks for detailed notes — and this request appears to be after the detailed notes are actually provided. That's an illusion: the detailed notes were inserted in response to DragonFire1024's request, but they were inserted on the page above the request.
- I remarked in some reviewer comments that some people provide PDF of handwritten notes; but my intent was merely to illustrate that it's possible to go to great lengths to provide detailed notes.
- However, that last review
seems[could be taken] to be actually requiring handwritten notes, and that seems excessive. If the notes provided are deemed to contain inadequate information, say so; if the reviewer believes the author is not trustworthy, say so; nor is there anything wrong with encouraging handwritten notes when viable — but requiring them is going entirely too far.
- --Pi zero (talk) 12:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
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- Okay, we may have both popped off here (conceivably with related contributing circumstances, since we've both in the vicinity of recent death). DragonFire1024 was suggesting in xyr review that handwritten notes would have provided additional credibility in a situation where xe felt credibility was lacking. I've modified my comments, a bit (too late to send them all back to the drawing board for a complete rewrite).
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- I do agree that we mustn't allow things to creep over into an appearance of requiring handwritten notes; I'd have no problem with encouraging them when feasible, but they aren't always feasible and, as I say, we need to avoid the appearance as well as the substance of requirement. --Pi zero (talk) 12:57, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Handwritten notes should not be mandatory. We've got an accreditation programme because we extend additional trust to such contributors; a trust that they will provide accurate information. That doesn't mean an utter absence of notetaking or such, just a lowering of the bar in relation to OR. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Not that my two cents really "slams this home", but heck, I can write notes that indicate I just interviewed the resurrected ghost of Walt Disney, scan them and post them as a PDF.......or if I've typed a transcript of such psychotic frivolity it doesn't add/take away from the credibility (face value-wise) of what I'm trying to say; type it, write it.......but do it......as Pi said above, if you don't trust the guy just say so. A liar can write as easily as they can type. Bddpaux (talk) 03:16, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Without in any way diminishing the basic point that handwritten notes should not be mandatory, it's going too far to suggest that greater detail doesn't increase credibility. Verification isn't only a matter of trust, and trust isn't yes-or-no. More information is more opportunity to detect discrepancies, be they honest or otherwise. (I'll not remark in detail on the case of actual dishonesty, as we're not looking to write a how-to for the dishonest.) --Pi zero (talk) 21:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- I do agree that we mustn't allow things to creep over into an appearance of requiring handwritten notes; I'd have no problem with encouraging them when feasible, but they aren't always feasible and, as I say, we need to avoid the appearance as well as the substance of requirement. --Pi zero (talk) 12:57, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Technical
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Commons ticker?
What is the general state of this at present?? Bddpaux (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- We don't have it. Wikinews:CommonsTicker hasn't been running for years; it was too confusing to be of much use to most people. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 10:57, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey all,
Just so that you know I added the new terms of use link to the copyright footer as requested by legal. I also ended up centering it after talking with some people on IRC because the left align looked very weird to me. If you don't like it obviously please revert! I kind of wonder if we just want to put the CC-by logo on the next line as well because then it would all perfectly center, I've seen a couple of other wikinews projects doing that. (You can see editable text/revert at Mediawiki:Copyright text at the bottom of most pages obviously). Jalexander (talk) 19:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Proposals
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Media Categories
I would like to ask whether it would be feasible to create and use category terms for Wikinews stories that employ "video", "photography" (more like the Photo Essays), "audio," or "graphics" to tell the story. I know there are Wikinews and Wikimedia Commons categories for audio right now to capture content or article type, like the "News briefs" or "Spoken word", but I'm bringing up something different. The audio in the Zimmerman story is used as an element to tell the story and so is the infographic. And I'm specifically asking about Wikinews categories for type of content other than text. Photography seems like a special case next to text because almost every story carries a graphic of some sort, if by default from Wikimedia Commons. I'm thinking of photographs that are used as more than the default as a means to communicate the content. Would this be feasible?Crtew (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Would media categories be of value? Trying to search for this right now is like searching for a needle in a haystack. I think it would be of value for the Wikinewsies here who want to see what Wikinews is producing or notice trends as reporting here changes over time. It may be useful to capture categories like this in terms of policy and as models for editors to sort through issues. As a reader, I would like to find stories sometimes with video to see for myself. Other sites, like MSNBC or CNN etc, put their video stories in a section so that it is easy to find. Do you agree or disaree that this would be useful? Please share: Crtew (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
- I see nothing wring with having Category:Video content and Category:Audio content, but would prefer them 'hidden' categories as they're not extremely relevant to readers just now. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Cease using the abuse filter
Vandalism levels are fairly low on Wikinews, and quite contained; everything public-fronted is protected far better by FlaggedRevs. The abuse filter, AFAICS, just causes problems and few solutions. It's also an overly technical tool compared to simply handling things through FlaggedRevs, which is a much simpler piece of kit to work with. Let's just turn it off. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 11:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'll have to think about this. Starting with a survey of just what the filters are currently set up for, and what they can be set up for. Flaggedrevs doesn't cover all namespaces, and even in spaces it does cover there are esoteric situations where it isn't applicable. --Pi zero (talk) 12:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd have to say this is a bad idea, unfortunately, it's just there's filters set up for specific chronic vandals that'd be tough to deal with without them. -- Cirt (talk) 16:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- Why would it be tough? Exactly what can they touch that is public-facing? Mainspace, anything linked from mainspace, and all templates are sightable. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 20:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd have to say this is a bad idea, unfortunately, it's just there's filters set up for specific chronic vandals that'd be tough to deal with without them. -- Cirt (talk) 16:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Assistance
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Maps
Does anybody know why "Template:Location map" works in Wikipedia but not in Wikinews? I want to put a pin on a map. Specifically, I want to put a pin for "Mpila" on its location in Brazzaville, Republic of Congo. Crtew (talk) 03:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Licensing, presumably. Remember, our license is more permissive than Wikipedia's, and consequently we (basically) cannot import stuff from Wikipedia because it would violate the conditions of copyright on the material we imported. The documentation for our version of that template notes someone was attempting, long ago, to get permission from the copyright holders, and since it still says that presumably they never did succeed. I think I've seen folk, in recent times, use a derivative image generated from the map by adding a pin in suitable location. --Pi zero (talk) 03:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Honestly, I didn't understand the last half of the last sentence. Hahaha .... Can anybody translate this -- "a derivative image generated from the map by adding a pin in suitable location" -- into plain folks' speech? Crtew (talk) 04:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- I could have a go, but I'm worried about the only way of doing it would go too far the other way - make it sound condescending. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 12:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- The template, as I understand it, superimposes a pin on top of the image; the pin isn't actually part of the image. Alternatively, one could create a new image by modifying the original map image —making this new image a derivative work— with the pin actually being part of this new, derivative image. (If that helps.) --Pi zero (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- I could have a go, but I'm worried about the only way of doing it would go too far the other way - make it sound condescending. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 12:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Honestly, I didn't understand the last half of the last sentence. Hahaha .... Can anybody translate this -- "a derivative image generated from the map by adding a pin in suitable location" -- into plain folks' speech? Crtew (talk) 04:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- It's been done so often, that there's nothing wrong pulling a Wikipedia template. As long as the different license for the markup/code is noted, not a problem. What's a (potential) problem is if the map we auto-generate a derivative of is not under a libre license. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:40, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
OpenStreetMap My ultimate and dream solution would be to embed an openstreetmap in much the way I would a Google Map, but with all of the tools that Google Maps provides, like a pin, trail and polygon shape for emphasis. The embed code allows people to place the code anywhere on the web but it refers to Google. I've not been able to see how that could be done with openstreet map.Crtew (talk) 13:43, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- There's been a couple of the StreetMap guys popped along to one of the Edinburgh Wikimeets. They're fairly approachable, I see no reason why they couldn't help out with some pointers on API/templating. Of course, for me at the moment I don't have email addresses to hand. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:52, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Mapbox Could somebody who is more knowledgeable on the license at Wikinews advise us about whether we can use Mapbox in a story? The license of OpenStreetMap just changed. Mapbox is based on that, but it has its own license. Then there is the Wikinews Creative Commons license. Thank you, Crtew (talk) 17:01, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Journalism challenges for the community!
I've been here a short while, but I have learned that Wikinewsies are curious, informed, global, and disciplined citizen journalists. You may like these three challenges, which I have modeled on my Contributions page, and I call them the "Topics challenge," "Regions challenge," based on the topics and regions list on our front page, as well as the "Media challenge," which is about the tools used to tell the stories. The challenge is to contribute content for every category and keep track as you go. I've tried to keep the rules simple:
Topics challenge: I will write at least one article in each topic area, place the "Done" template when completed, and recommend one or possibly more articles credited to me in the category. Recommended articles are ordered from new to old. No article will be listed in multiple categories, and the chosen category for the article should be immediately intuitive.
- Crime and law
Not done - Culture and entertainment Not done
- Disasters and accidents Not done
- Economy and business Not done
- Education Not done
- Environment Not done
- Health Not done
- Obituaries Not done
- Politics and conflicts Not done
- Science and technology Not done
- Sports Not done
- Wacky news Not done
- Weather Not done
Not done
Done
Regions challenge Using similar guidelines as the "Topics challenge" above, I will write at least one article about each region of the world, as well as one article that is global (world issue, specifically adresses multiple countries, the poles or oceans). All articles listed must be outside of my native country, which for me is ...
- Africa Not done
- North America Not done
- South America Not done
- Asia Not done
- Europe Not done
- Middle East Not done
- Oceania Not done
- Global Not done
Done
Media challenge: Similar to the above guidelines, but I will use a variety of tools to tell interesting stories and provide context and perspective to the facts. I will document my sources for each use below in my reporter's notes on the talk page of the article for transparency.
- Conduct a Q & A interview Not done
- Interview one expert source and one affected person in a story Not done
- Use primary source documents to tell a story and supplement with an interview Not done
- Include human observation in a story where you have also conducted an interview Not done Note: Your own observation is considered primary. Observations from others is sourced and called secondary. Both should be documented in your notes.
- Photo story Not done Note: You can either take the photos or you can retrieve them from a reliable source while strictly observing copyright.
- Audio Not done
- Video Not done
- Create an infobox Not done
- Create an infographic from sourced data Not done
- Create a diagram Not done
- Use a map Not done
- Make a timeline Not done
- Use a spreadsheet to analyze data from a primary source and supplement with an interview Not done
- Apply your country's rules to access data from public institutions Not done
Done
Perhaps we can create an awards wall (a page) and whoever finishes can list the username upon successful completion of each category, as well as award a badge! Any volunteers for these two tasks? It's not a race; work at your own speed. Tackle it in your own way: No need to be thorough (one article is all you need). But if you want, use it to pursue new reporting ground, even within categories! Work outside of your comfort zone and do something you haven't done before! The spirit of the challenge is to stretch yourself and have fun! Crtew (talk) 03:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
- This is awesome. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 20:11, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Miscellaneous
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Disaster news
Good evening all,
I didn't really know where to go, as I cannot find any other forum than this one. I like reading wiki news because it covers a variety of subjects, and not just the typical sensational stories. Today, on the main page, there are two vehicle disaster stories in a row. I am not sure that hilighting a plane crash and then a train crash is consisten with the diversity of subjects I have seen before on wikinews headlines. While they are both tragic, the results are depressing, especially when they are placed next to a ballistic missile test and the death of an American celebrity. In my humble opinion of course, I wonder if those four stories are not only the best/most important news of the last few days or at least that they should be lumped together. --Shabidoo (talk) 01:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- You appear to be on the wrong project. Your comments match what was recently displayed on Wikipedia's Main Page, and bear little resemblance to our own. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 15:47, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. Do you have any idea who controls it? It's really difficult to navigate all of the forum pages and village pumps etc... --Shabidoo (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'd guess w:Wikipedia talk:In the news would be as good a place as any to go to. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 11:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. Do you have any idea who controls it? It's really difficult to navigate all of the forum pages and village pumps etc... --Shabidoo (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
An immensely interesting article
Not a question (and I'm also going to throw this over at the Reference Desk), but such a cool article......read it.....you'll like it!!
http://www.poynter.org/uncategorized/69328/the-11-layers-of-citizen-journalism/
