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Policies and guidelines and the Style guide contain or link to most of the current en.Wikinews policies and guidelines, however policy is based on the accepted practices of the day on Wikinews, often these might not be written down. This section of the Water cooler focuses on discussions regarding policy issues.

You may wish to check the archives to see if a subject has been raised previously.

More on WN:IP

I've developed a page that relates to our inactive policy here. Take a look, and comment, if you don't mind. Thunderhead - (talk - email - contributions) 23:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Wackynews NPOV?

This has been bugging me for a while now. I like Portal:Wackynews, and I know it's like a lot of newspapers that have some sort of "odd spot news" section. The problem is, I'm not sure if it presents a neutral point of view. For some stories, a Wackynews tag seems obvious - for example, Thai police to wear 'Hello Kitty' armbands as punishment. It's an extremely strange governmental reaction to a real problem. But then I look at other articles tagged as Wackynews, and I'm not so sure - for example, YouTube access returns to Thailand. Obviously someone found it wacky, and either no-one noticed or no-one disagreed, so it stayed there, even though the original article (Thailand bans YouTube over videos insulting king) wasn't put in there, and I would probably not consider it a "wacky" story.

The problem I see is that "wackyness" is a very subjective thing, so how can we determine a neutral way to apply it? Confusing Manifestation (Say hi!|Stalk me!) 01:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

One suggestion going forward would be if a piece of news is labeled as oddball or something similar by another news source? JoshuaZ 01:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree it is very subjective and probably incongruent with NPOV. Recently, I was tempted to remove the "wacky"-status of this article Police in Texas arrest man eating dead girlfriend. While certainly "crazy" or "insane" by most standards, it did seem tasteless to classify a murder as "wacky". Yes, other news sources have similar categories such as Reuters' Oddly Enough category. But some people have issues with the way that Reuters treats some of these stories. It is a popular category, but something we have to consider/keep an eye on. --SVTCobra 01:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I used to not like the Wackynews categories, but I have grown to love it like a red-headed stepchild. I got no small satisfaction from being able to apply the category (and designation) to a couple of things I have written. I say keep it and to be careful with becoming too dogmatic with rules. --David Shankbone 02:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• I have removed the Wackynews categorisation from the YouTube/Thailand story. --Brian McNeil / ^talk 07:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Articles based on public domain (VOA) material - Part II

Back in November, SVTCobra brought up a discussion on the Water Cooler regarding articles based on PD sources. There have been many Wikinews articles since then, based on Voice of America (VOA) articles, which are for the most part in the public domain. An exception would be where VOA have used Associated Press content in their article, which is subject to copyright.

It should be noted that the VOA Terms of Use state that, "Credit for any use of VOA material should be given to VOA, and we ask that you not abridge or edit any VOA material which you may use."

The "abridge or edit" issue was discussed in the previous Water Cooler thread. I didn't see a clear concensus on whether or not VOA material should be used without abridging ot editing, or could be modified because PD is PD.

What I have seen lately from various Wikinews contributors are two uses of the VOA material. One is a straight copy-and-paste of the VOA article in its entirety and the other is some editing and modification of the VOA material. In both cases, an additional source gets added, although in the former, the additional source is not used at all.

Sorry for the long-winded preamble, but here is what I would like some feedback on:

1. Can we reach concensus on whether the PD material from VOA can be abridged or edited? As it is, when I see one of the VOA/Wikinews articles, I am not sure whether I can chip in and modify the content or not.
2. For the articles where the VOA material is copied without modification or additions, might this not be violating the spirit of NPOV (depending on the content) since the only viewpoint presented is VOA's? I suppose it would be a case-by-case decision. And would it not be considered single-source since the additional listed sources are unused? --Jcart1534 19:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Replies

• 1. As I concluded in the previous discussion, PD material is available for any purpose and may therefore be modified. VOA's request may stem from a lack of a understanding of PD or a resentment by the journalists working there that their work is PD. If we choose to respect their request, it would only be as a courtesy. However, if we change or add anything to the article, we should be very careful to make sure that it doesn't look like it came from VOA. We should attribute directly in the article (e.g. "BBC News says ..." or "According to Reuters ...").

2. VOA News seems to have rather high journalistic standards, but I have found myself removing a sentence or paragraph to keep it NPOV. The second source (at least as far as I used it) is there to substantiate the factual claims in the VOA article. The contributing editor should, imo, find and read a second source to make sure that the story is not, somehow, a VOA fabrication. --SVTCobra 20:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree.

1. It might be lack of understanding, anyway it's PD.

2. There's no reason why VOA should be an exception to NPOV or single source. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 21:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In regards to npov. Wasn't the Voice of America used in the cold war to broadcast anti-communist propaganda into communist countries? Bawolff ☺☻ 07:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the radio broadcasts by VOA in various locations around the world have indeed been dubbed propaganda (and probably rightfully so). I think their web-based news has a pretty good track-record, however. Steven seems to have missed my point on #2, which was that a second source is needed and should be listed and compared to any VOA PD article we carry, expressly for the purpose of keeping any POV issues (intentionally or otherwise) in check. The second source should confirm the factual claims of the PD source, so to show that there is confirmation, thus avoiding the pitfalls of single-source. Anyone adding a PD story (VOA or otherwise) should not be so lazy that they don't do fact-checking. --SVTCobra 00:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Agree with Steven and Cobra - VOA request not legally enforceable and always need multiple sources for a new item unless it is "breaking" or OR.

1. It is either lack of understanding or, more likely, it's a scarecrow tactic. Put up a warning that can only be complied with voluntarily. It's like photography: A store or theater may say "no photographs" but the most they can do is ask you to leave since there is no law. It's a preference with no legal teeth.

2. Per Steven. --David Shankbone 11:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• 1. It's in the public domain. Legally. we can do whatever the hell we want to with it.

2. I'm not entirely sure we want to use the material at all. A simple copy & paste is pointless. If people want to read news by the Voice of America, they go to the website of the Voice of America. I don't think it should be Wikinews' job to simply syndicate stories written by others. On the other hand, editing the stories goes against the explicit wish of the creators and is quite simply rude. --+Deprifry+ 19:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Remember we also made an agreement where we can use Beta news stuff. Bawolff ☺☻ 19:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Huh? This Beta News? When did that happen? --+Deprifry+ 19:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

see mailing list. The short of it is that Wikimedia Siberia made an agreement where there news (in siberian and en) in cc-by 2,5. Bawolff ☺☻ 19:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Deprify (above). Until I read this I never fully considered that modifying article was against the wishes of VOA. As a result, I will no longer use articles from VOA UNLESS it is established that VOA is fine with us copying it (not just from a legal perspective). --User:Anonymous101 Talk 20:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

VOA articles that include material from AP or other wire sources

There have been instances recently where VOA articles have been copied/pasted even though it stated on the VOA article page that "Some information for this report was provided by AFP, AP and Reuters." There seem to be two different views on what this means in terms of using it as PD. A sample of the discussion can be found here. We have two senior editors with opposite opinions of what it means for VOA to have incorporated news wire material into their article. Our policy is clear and it is a position I agree with. I believe that if a VOA article states that some information was provided by AP or others, we should not treat it as PD. If we want to use it as a source and write an article from scratch with multiple sources, that would be fine. But it should not be copy and pasted verbatim. However, the opposite understanding seems to be that VOA would rewrite and incorporate the AP, AFP, and Reuters material into their article, so that the final article presented is an original aggregate worthy of being designated as PD. I think this really needs to be resolved quickly. I suppose it is not clear whether VOA rewrites the wire material, but I would tend to err on the side caution and treat it as non-PD. Thoughts? --Jcart1534 15:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I suspect that they change a thing or two, especially in case where they string together two or more wire services, but there is no reason to think that they don't copy entire paragraphs, since they pay for the wire services. --SVTCobra 20:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not contact VOA

I suggest that an admin should email VOA (I suggest one of the following addresses - VOANews@VOANews.com or pubaff@ibb.gov) and ask them the questions above. I think this because instead of guessing we can get a definitive answer. I think it would be better for an admin to contact them but if no one else does I will (unless there are objections) --User:Anonymous101 Talk 18:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

i had contacted VOA couple of weeks back, asking for clarification on whether the no-abridge/edit condition "is a license requirement or only a courtesy request". i added, "if the latter, i think it would be of some help to us in deciding whether/how to use VoA material if you explain the reasons for this requirement." here's the response:

Quote

my take on this (and IANAL) is

• VOA original material (includes reports in which "information" is provided by other news agencies) is public domain. we can legally use it which way we please. but i think we should give some consideration to their views on such reuse.
• i think VOA's concern about editing and abridging is to do with the impression readers may form that the modified text is VoA's work - in it's voice. if this is the problem, then it can be handled by suitably wording the VOA attribution template.
• it's tempting to liberally use VOA material, its an easy way to dramatically improve the scope of our coverage, which can be pretty patchy, but unless we also add plenty of value of our own, it serves little purpose - why shld readers come to Wikinews to read VOA reports that they can read on VOA.

so while i'm inclined against simply reproducing their content (VOA itself does not have a problem with that!) i'd be less opposed to using VOA text as meat for a story if we can plenty enough to it (but we may need to address VOA's concerns about such use) –Doldrums(talk) 16:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

All the above input is excellent and appreciated. I agree with Doldrums that, in cases where VOA text is abridged or edited, our VOA attribution template should be modified to make it clear that the Wikinews article is not just "based on" VOA material, but that the VOA text has been substantially altered and added to, and contains information from multiple sources. The template would not, of course, be necessary if VOA is used simply as a source for facts and not their text. --Jcart1534 12:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

New development in use of VOA articles

It seems that people have begun to add VOA articles without a secondary source. To me that suggests that no fact-checking has been done and further it violates the principle of not relying on a single source. --SVTCobra 14:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I have had to unpublish a story without a secondary source, although now I have seen lots so I thought I should check on the water cooler and not just unpublish it. Please say below if you think I should be unpublishing these. Note, I have contacted the user who has created/published all of these articles--Anonymous101 16:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions

Here a some suggestions I have came up with regarding VOA

1. Until this issue is resolved I think no one should create any news VOA based articles
2. There should be a vote on whether we should include exact copies of VOA articles (my opinion is that we should not)
3. There should be a vote on whether we should include modifications of VOA articles (my opinion is that we should not)
4. If we decide to use exact copies on VOA articles we should decide whether a secondary source is needed (my opinion is strongly for it being needed)
5. I also think that this issue should be addressed instantly --Anonymous101 16:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't your opinions on #2 and #3 conflict with each other? --SVTCobra 17:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I just think we shouldn't use VOA articles. --Anonymous101 06:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the simplest solution is to use VOA as a regular source like AP or the BBC. We still need to beat the single source requirements so a verbatim copy is likely inappropriate. However, liberal attributed quoting from the VOA source should be welcomed.

Where VOA mentions that part of their story is off the wire from AP or Reuters we should be seeking out that as a source for our article. --Brian McNeil / ^talk 08:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Reviews of Entertainment

I would like to write an article that is a book review. It does not necessarily have to contian my opinion and I believe it could retain a neutral point of view. But I would like to submit my opinion with the book review. A disclaimer could follow indicating that the article expresses the opinion of the author/s and WikiNews does not endorse that opinion. Alternately, the book review could contain a neutral point of view, but then is it more appropriate to put the material in Wikipedia? The problem with that is that some books have not been reviewed yet so citing sources is not possible. That makes the content original for Wikipedia. Let me know what you think and if you have suggestions.: Charlessauer 20:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I have written a Book Review as an example that provides a neutral point of view. You can find the news here,

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Book_Review:_Swallow_Wahweap:_Drink_Bitter_Water

I believe that this news brief is complete without further addition and can be moved to the entertainment section, but do let me know if there is anything further I need to do before proceeding to that stage. Thank you :Charlessauer 22:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced the review you've done meets NPOV, but I want the opinion of other contributors. --Brian McNeil / ^talk 09:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Whilst many news organisations do publish book reviews it doesn't mean we should. Simply put it is impossible for a book review to be neutral. The whole idea of such an article is that it allows the reader to gain more of an opinion of a book than they might find in its description. Now unless any opinion or analysis of the book is omitted, in which case an article on Wikipedia would be a more appropriate output, I cannot see how such material is suitable for Wikinews. Adambro 15:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that analysis of a book needs to be omitted from the review to retain a neutral point of view. In fact isn't reporting any news event about analyzing and reporting any subject? I could argue that all subject matter is not worthy of Wikinews because all subject matter requires some form of analysis. The same is true about the formation of an opinion. The reader forms an opinion after reading any news even if the reporter has done their best to maintain neutrality. :Charlessauer 15:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

We're supposed to leave it up to the reader to form their opinion not offer them ours. Regardless, this book was published eight years ago! No news organisation is going to publish a review of such an old book. Adambro 15:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That is your opinion! and beside the point. You are clearly stating a bias point of view. Maybe we should ban the Water cooler portion of this site. Charlessauer 16:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll tell you one thing: Based on your illogical arguments you are about to make world news. I consider this censorship. Charlessauer 16:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Ahh great, the old censorship nonsense gets an airing. Requiring that articles fall within the scope of the project, primarily news articles about current events, is not censorship and suggesting it is just makes you sound a little daft. Adambro 16:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So now you are going to resort to slander too. I find that very unprofessional. Charlessauer 16:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry but I find any suggestion that not allowing certain articles is censorship as very irritating. It's the desperate argument that nutcases use when their attempts to write extremely biased articles promoting whatever opinion it is they have are considered for deletion. What people fail to realise is that simply because anyone can contribute here, it doesn't mean that anyone can write anything. We have guidelines and policies and the community are not going to dismiss these simply because of a suggestion of censorship. Adambro 16:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

You have just admitted that you allowed your anger (irritation) rather than using rational thinking to sway your decision. Charlessauer 16:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that without a vote or further discussion user Anonymous101 arbitrarily decided to move the article out of the ready state. Charlessauer 16:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I see Adambro has already said something similar but as it is about an action I took I thought I should respond. Charlessauer, please note that the ready template says that you should remove it if you do not think it complies with Wikinews policies and guidelines. I think it doesn’t. It also says to note the reasons on the talk page, which I did. --Anonymous101 20:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

To mark an article as ready is a suggestion that it is thought that it meets policies and guidelines and is ready to be published after another editor reviews it. In this case Anonymous101 has concluded that further work/discussion is required. Such a decision does not need to be discussed or voted upon. Adambro 16:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I presented this logically and you have turned this into an argument without substantiating your argument. Charlessauer 16:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I came across this article and was about to tag it as notnews. Wikinews is not a place for editorials - and while we want to encourage news stories, we also have to stay NPOV. A review, by it's very virtue, is a subjective thing. Until we can form some sort of policy regarding this, I don't think such an article is suitable for inclusion in Wikinews Mainspace. Feel free to propose such a policy - write it out in the Wikinews: namespace and flesh it out! --Skenmy^(t•c•w) 16:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That is logical. Thank you for not assuming I am a “nut case” and being decent enough to defend your position. I can agree that the very definition of review indicates a “critical evaluation”. Perhaps if we remove “review” from the title it would be more appropriate. That said, other than myself with one adjective, no one has demonstrated, using the example that I provided, areas where the article could be misconstrued as not neutral. Further, I could look at any article on this web site and demonstrate that the reporter had to analyze the subject matter. As mentioned, then, perhaps “review” could be stricken from the title. Perhaps “analysis” is more appropriate. Charlessauer 17:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

But an "analysis" is not "news" in my understanding of the word. If a new book is released at a big event, then that is news. If a million copies of the book are burnt in a protest, that is news. But a review (or analysis) of the book is not news - it's not a current *event*, and as such I don't see it as suitable for inclusion on Wikinews. The same can be said for editorials, and opinion pieces. It's the reason we don't run columns. --Skenmy^(t•c•w) 17:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I would argue that all reporting requires some form of analysis. You have not demonstrated otherwise using an example. The basis of my point is that the content of a book can be reported using a neutral point of view, and I have provided an example. You have not demonstrated otherwise using an example. Charlessauer 17:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Surely if you are reporting the content of a book from a NPOV then you are just writing an NPOV blurb? In which case that's advertising - also not suitable for inclusion on Wikinews. --Skenmy^(t•c•w) 17:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So, your argument is that when anyone on wikinews writes an article from an NPOV, they are advertising; Therefore, all articles on wikinews is not suitable for inclusion. Charlessauer 17:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

My argument is that reporting the *content of a book* is different from reporting *actual news* - current events, major happenings, and the like. --Skenmy^(t•c•w) 17:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The publication of a new book is a current event. If no one reported the publication of a book for eight years it is the same as no one reporting that someone discovered a revolutionary technology for eight years. The source was not known until now. The retrospect, itself, makes it current. Charlessauer 18:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The content of your example above is more encyclopaedic than news. You are arguing against a pretty well established system - yes we are open to change but only after proposal and consensus. You arguing here is not going to get your article published - I suggest you either make the proposal in the Wikinews: namespace, or go to Wikipedia and include your content there. I warn you, though, that opinionated content is not acceptable there, either. I won't be contributing any further to this discussion. --Skenmy^(t•c•w) 18:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am arguing for NPOV. I will remove the term “review”. This is news worthy material. Anyone arguing otherwise is stating an opinion; therefore, they are arguing against NPOV. That is a fact. Charlessauer 18:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Look. I suggested reporting from an NPOV the content of a book. That is a fact. I have offered to remove the term “review”. That is a fact. I am defending NPOV and you are defending the opposite. Charlessauer 17:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am defending what I believe to be in the best interests of Wikinews. Reporting the contents of a book is parallel to reporting the contents of a tin of fruit salad - it's just not what I consider *news*. "News is any new information or information on current events which is presented by print, broadcast, Internet, or word of mouth to a third party or mass audience." - from 'pedia. A book review does not fit into that category. --Skenmy^(t•c•w) 17:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That is precisely my point: you are defending what you believe. Charlessauer 18:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• NPOV on Wikinews is a foundation level policy. See: Neutral point of view. Although, having reviews of entertainment (I think movies have come up several times) has been suggested in the past, it is virtually impossible to do. First off, multiple editors would have read the book/seen the movie/heard the music, etc., otherwise it can't be verifiable. Second, can an NPOV review even be done? In your sample review, you state: "The end appears to contradict the theme." Now, I have not read the book, but that certainly seems to be an opinion. It may seem innocuous and neutral to you, but would every reader reach the same conclusion? The lack of these editorial freedoms may be what is holding Wikinews back, but it is also what makes it unique. --SVTCobra 02:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you know what I am tired of? That NPOV on Wikinews is used to downgrade the site to a Reuters "news flash" site. I think Wikinews is far more interesting a concept as a place that is a fully-functioning alternative to Newsweek.com, Time.com, et. al. I think there is room for book reviews, even dualing book reviews, on Wikinews. What I wish Cobra, Adambro, et. al. would think about is what is Wikinews? They seem to define it through policies that have been written that are at time more applicable to Wikipedia, an encyclopedia, than they are to a news site. People get too hung up on NPOV. I understand why, but I think what we are doing on Wikinews is a bit broader than "Report the world as if you are a robot." --David Shankbone 02:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

And yes--HORRORS--I even think we should have EDITORIALS!!!! Can you *imagine*?!--David Shankbone 02:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes I can imagine that, and frankly what I envision are horrors. We'd be filled with conspiracy theories and political attack stories. Everyone that writes a blog could just call it an "editiorial" and publish it on Wikinews. It'd be one great free-for-all. --SVTCobra 02:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's your view, but I also don't think you are a visionary at all and I think you've proven that time and again. Your problem, Cobra, is that you see no way around your Worst Case Scenario. You think "Editorials? Anyone can write them? That's a horror of conspiracy theories, etc." You don't think "Hmmmm...maybe we can create an editorial board, like major newspapers." You don't think "Hmmm...maybe we can do an invited editorial here and there." You think worst case scenario, which is befitting your lack of vision, which you display time and again. --David Shankbone 02:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I like to think of my "lack of vision" as realism. Also, I think that failure to envision the worst case scenario is a lack of due dillegence. Maybe you like to go on boats that have no life preservers, I know I don't. Your suggestion of editiorial board, though I know you made it in haste, seems wholly unworkable, but then again, I lack vision. But it seems that you are suggesting that there be an elite core/editorial board than will sit in judgement of the worthiness of one editorial over another. Not to mention how anti-wiki editorials would be in the first place. Seriously, if you wrote an editorial would you want someone else to change it and possibly insert their own opinions? --SVTCobra 03:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think you do lack vision, and I think you show that. You cling to policies and guidelines that, if we were to debate them, would quickly become meaningless. Certainly it has occurred to you that there is NPOV on what is NPOV? Wiki isn't just a concept that "Anyone can edit anything they want." That's not Wiki. The idea is that anyone with something useful to contribute can contribute. If an editorial is written and a useful clean-up or addition to it can be made, then great. My problem with your lack of vision is that it harms Wikinews. From what point do you start? I'll tell you where I start from: The MSM media model is successful, but flawed, and can be improved upon. That means news reporting, book reviews, blog entries (which news sites now do), editorials, etc. How can we take this model and improve upon it as a citizen news site? You don't seem to start from that position. You seem to think news is definable (by your own POV) and that NPOV is actually a state, and not an opinion-dominated concept. --David Shankbone 03:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

<unindent>You seem to think that Wikinews was created to mimic the successes of MSM. I contend that it is here to remove the systemic, political, economic and other bias that has become commonplace in these outlets. The fact that other sites, such as CNN, have blog areas only confuses facts even more, as people refer to them as reliable sources, drawing on the name of the hosting site. You and I also have a great deal of difference in opinion as to what harms Wikinews. --SVTCobra 03:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and it stems from the idea that you think NPOV is an actual state. Yet NPOV is an opinion-dominated concept (as the discussion over the Wikinews Picture of the Year illustrates). You seem to think that Wikinews was created to combat the MSM model's structural element; I think it was more meant to combat it's elitist elements. Perhaps it was for both. But if Wikinews is to be relevant, it sure as hell better be something that 1. people want to read; and 2. is relevant to their lives. If Wikinews does not meet those two criteria, then it fails at whatever it attempts. And the two go hand-in-hand. Beyond theory, Cobra, over what Wikinews is, what NPOV is, and what harms Wikinews, if we don't meet those two criteria we just remain a hobbyist's outlet. Your thoughts here are illustrative of a larger problem Wikinews faces: which is just that we are a strainer, a collander, of the news the MSM reports, straining it down to what think are the facts removed of the MSM's bias. That is not what we are. We are not a Reuters New Flash site. We are a citizen-journalism site, where people go to report on the world around them. We aren't all signing up to read the MSM and then whittle it down to the basics. It's great we have that contingent on here, and you are clearly one of them, but that's not all this site is and you need to realize that. That is not all that citizen journalism is and you should recognize that to help realize this site's full potential. --David Shankbone 03:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Why are you confusing book reviews with citizen journalism. Where have I ever obstructed citizen journalism? My ideal "pie-in-the-sky" Wikinews has contributers from all around the world contributing stories that they write about events they witness and pictures that they took. They report what they see so that the rest of us will know. Until those people are there and writing here, well, how else can we report the news other than referencing the newswires? My vision (or lack thereof) does not include opinion pieces. Of course, we could abandon all that and just be a magazine that has interviews with interesting people and book reviews, but that kind of removes the news aspect of it. --SVTCobra 04:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

For you, Cobra, everything is black and white. You objected completely to the Israel reporting, never once saying that it was a big step for our site and that this woudl be imperfect. To you, it was delivered a certain way, you objected, and you were against it. You aren't about trying to make things work, you are about "I am for this as it is presented" or "I am against this as it is presented." You aren't thinking outside the box, and you box us in to a formulaic, "safe" idea that leaves no room for error. Had you said, "Wikinews going all expenses paid to Israel is interesting and good, let's see what David does with it and how we can improve upon these kinds of things in the future." Instead, you thought, "Let's see what David does with this, and whether I will approve or disapprove of these kinds of things." That's the vision issue you have. The Israel trip was an experiment, and you denounced it from the get-go giving no constructive input to improve such things. You lack vision, and it's a problem. --David Shankbone 04:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Without reading all the discussion, and reading David's last statement, I agree with David. Sim[ly put: we need to write what people want to read. If that means a little more of the "tabloid" news then so be it...news is news whether is Lindsay Lohan or Scientology. Call me crazy...but our ratings have increased, we have a few new contributers, and IRC is filling up....so what are we doing right? Well I think looking at what we have been doing the past few weeks speaks for itself. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 03:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Dragon really understands this. Wikinews is a news site. A news site generates content other people want to read, and discuss. When we only have content that regurgitates the MSM, nobody is going to read us or discuss us. So Wikinews needs to look to generate content, report news, that is original. Where we can do that is by working in the world around us and finding stories we feel are not discussed. I do that through interviews. If anyone can take anything from my work, it's that I explored the world around me and reported on things I found interesting, and that I would want to read about. Whether it be the President of Israel or people who run a BDSM dungeon. I don't find "what it takes to run a BDSM dungeon" in Newsweek, but I would be interested in an article about that. So I did it. And so should you. Find something that nobody else is talking about in your city and report about it! That's citizen journalism. But so is the collander-straining the MSM stuff. Cobra's problem is he only sees one side of the coin. --David Shankbone 04:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL, I thought the point of being non-profit was not pandering to "what people want to read" and providing factual information. Hell, if there is concensus in taking Wikinews in that direction and having more stories on Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, and this cyberwar on Scientology (on which we already have absurd amounts of coverage), well then godspeed because I won't be going along for the ride. You might want to take a look at what they are doing over at TMZ.com because they've already been able to launch a TV show. Wikinews:Video 2.0 might do better if it had wikt:salacious celebrity videos. As far as David exploring the world, none of it has been quite news, some of it has be relevant, some has been quite random. --SVTCobra 04:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Everything is black or white for you. It's vision, Cobra. And it's saying there is room for a variety of news stories, not just what one person considers news. Part of NPOV is to say that your own POV as to what is news should not dictate the news stories. That's pretty basic. You spend too much time telling people that they shouldn't be contributing, or they are doing it all wrong. More than most of us. And that's POV. --David Shankbone 04:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL, I thought the point of being non-profit was not pandering to "what people want to read" and providing factual information.

Wikinews, right now, is totally 100% floundering. Let's just be honest here, it really is. Without readers we're basically writing and taking time out of our respective days to write stuff for ourselves which nobody else will read. For some reason, you seem to think "pandering" to public interest is a bad thing, just by the use of the word "pandering." I call it not just talking, but listening. Every news outlet that I'm aware of welcomes feedback as to what interests them. When time or space permits, usually those kinds of ideas are eventually honored.

My interviews have taken a lot of my time and really, a lot of love and care. I've had people tell me to my face that they're 1) not real news, 2) worthless, and 3) the subjects are not nearly good enough to be on a site like Wikinews. At first my responses are basically, 1) write real news if you want to see more of it, 2) F-U, and 3) a bit humorous considering our viewing figures, unless we stumble on a good interview or a scintillating OR story, are ABYSMAL. Considering I'm doing this out of my own accord, I don't appreciate negatives; as I've said before, I don't like hearing can't, I like hearing can. I think we should all start listening just a bit more instead of going "No! No! No!" before it's too late for us to rebound as a site at all. TheCustomOfLife 17:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Mike, you misunderstand me. It was not a "put-down" of your interviews. By "pandering" I meant the suggestion editors should stop writing about what interests them and spend more time writing about what's "popular". Specifically, I read DF's comment as a suggestion that I stop writing the stories that I do because, as you say "nobody reads them", and that I would serve Wikinews better if I wrote about Lindsay Lohan. That is what I took issue with. --SVTCobra 17:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

!We have wholly corrupted the original discussion. I will, arbitrarily draw the line here, which I should have done long ago! --SVTCobra 04:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to reintroduce the term analysis. I should hope that no one here would believe that the term analysis implies subjectivity. I should especially hope that anyone with a specialized degree in mathematics, engineering, or science would believe that analysis is NOT subjective. Analysis is required to find the anomalies within programed code, within circuit boards, and within mathematical formula. Likewise, critical analysis of text is an attempt to objectively define, classify, and characterize literary, philosophical, or theatrical works of art. So, analysis fits the NPOV policy. Book reviews are a form of critical analysis. Charlessauer 14:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• There is a neat and clean way to achieve this that complies with current policy. Create a news article about an upcoming or recently published book, containing NPOV-style information about the publisher/author, basic plot details and possibly quotes from reviews by another publication. Then write your own review of that book on the corresponding Comments: page. --+Deprifry+ 15:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Genius! Thank you for cutting this knot. --Brian McNeil / ^talk 15:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• This whole discussion is bordering on ridiculous and for some of the above comments there should be retractions and/or apologies. Everyone who has engaged in this discussion wants to see Wikinews doing better. It is indisputable that to do so we are going to have to test the limits of NPOV. The more edgy our coverage the more readers we collect. Wikipedia can afford to be aloof and wait weeks for an article to gel into the right shape. We do not and can not take the same lazy pace. We need things written and published in 24-48 hours. This pressure is part of what I find enjoyable about Wikinews. I'm not always looking at the same articles with a small change here and there, it is new stuff every day.

That being said, I think I have to - to some extent - agree with Mike and David. Some people are being too risk-averse. We have someone wants to do book reviews? Why not? Okay in the given example the book is not new so fails several of our tests for being news, but it is an opportunity to work out guidelines whereby we can cover material like this. We need to seize opportunities to increase the scope of our coverage. We can't do that if we don't engage with the people who try things.

As an example, I believe TheCustomOfLife has been criticised for his coverage of ANTM. If I wanted to be extremely uncharitable I'd describe it as a waste of space. Yet, with a little thought, you can see it isn't. The material has an audience (which doesn't include me and a few other contributors) and it provokes input on our Comments namespace. That tells you the stuff is being read and there is the potential to draw in new contributors. We're not Wikipedia, nobody is going to breath a sigh of relief about bandwidth bills if our readership drops 10%; instead they're going to be screaming "where's the screwup?". --Brian McNeil / ^talk 18:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with brianmc 100% DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 18:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I want to say that I have absolutely no issue with book reviews or editorials if the community agrees. David Shankbone’s trip to Israel and the associated articles were brilliant. They were probably one of the articles I enjoyed reading most. My issue is that I do not think we should mark an article as ready before it consensus is reached. My opinion is not that all opinion should be removed from Wikinews, but before articles are created community consensus needs to be reached and that there may be a different way on implementing them, which does not involve posting them in the main namespace. I think this should be implemented by creating an ‘Editorials’ namespace in which selected users should be able to post editorials. I think these users should be selected by the community. I think these editorials should not appear on the main page but should instead appear on an editorial page. I also want to thank Charlessauer on attempting to be bold and improve Wikinews but unfortunately it was probably an action that is too bold for a new user too take with out some community consensus . I also think that the book was too old to count as news. --Anonymous101 21:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have to agree with SVTcobra. There's no reasonable way to do NPOV book reviews. This isn't to say that book reviews aren't good things that should exist in this world, but rather that they aren't things Wikinews can reasonably do. A commitment to NPOV does restrict in many ways what sort of things we can cover. That's part of the cost of making a project that is NPOV and NPOV is part of the cost of being able to have news project that is of interest to as many as possible and has an many people as possible willing to contribute. JoshuaZ 22:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Then we write new policy specifically for interviews and reviews. What to do and what not to do. You seem to be missing that in journalism, fairness and accuracy (the equivalent of NPOV) is valued, yet there are some facets that don't fit the equation (reviews, interviews, etc.). That doesn't mean cut them out completely, it means make new guidelines. TheCustomOfLife 22:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

We can't tamper with foundation level policies nor should we. I'd also point out that interviews can be NPOV. (I've just completed an interview with Randall Munroe that will be up shortly)- the key there is to ask questions that are NPOV. However, for reviews there's really no reasonable way to do that. JoshuaZ 23:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggesting new policies for different kinds of pieces isn't "tampering" with existing policies on regular "from the wire and original reporting" articles. In fact, the "old" NPOV policy for articles would stay as-is and apply to those kinds of articles. What I'm saying is, we need to do new guidelines for both interviews and reviews. Not every news item is created equal, and that doesn't make other kinds of news items "less news-y." At the risk of sounding offensive (which I'm not trying to do), you're not thinking outside the box or really how a professional journalist would on this matter. That's not to belittle your opinion, but it lacks perspective, I believe, to not let Wikinews grow like any other outlet would. TheCustomOfLife 05:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

First of all I would like to sincerely apologize to anyone I may have offended. Specifically, I'd like to apologize to Adambro. In promulgating and defending my position I claimed, as you rightfully pointed out, censorship. I reacted and I did so in haste. I'd also like to apologize to Skemmy and Anonymous101. Each of you have contributed to Wikinews and I applaud that. I also apologize to anyone else I may have unwittingly offended. That was never my intent. I thank each of you for your insightful input. Charlessauer 08:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for apologizing and making clear you didn't mean to offend users. --Anonymous101 16:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I concede that the book review chosen as an example is not current. The introduction of reviews or editorials needs consensus especially in the light of current policies. As a new user it will be difficult for me to earn the support needed for this idea. Charlessauer 08:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I propose the following is put to a vote: 1.) a trial period of not more than thirty days to establish a policy specific to book reviews of fiction in a section only under entertainment; 2.) a trial period of not more than thirty days for a series dedicated to an analysis of new books – where new books means that they are not more than one year old; 3.) each book analysis will start as a proposal seeking consensus within three days of the proposal; 4.) any non-affirmative vote for a given proposal means that the proposal is deleted; 5.) if consensus is reached for a proposal than a full analysis will be presented seeking revision; 6.) moderators or administrators will be assigned to monitor the article for breach of NPOV; 7.) any moderator must commit to become familiar with the material in the article (for instance – if it is a book then moderators must commit to reading the book); 8.) any part of the analysis deemed to not follow policy will be altered until everyone agrees that the analysis conforms; 9.) if consensus cannot be met within three days after presentation of the analysis then the article will be deleted; 10.) at the end of the trial run of no more than sixty days – thirty days to establish a policy, and thirty days of book analysis – the idea will be put to a vote seeking consensus. The vote will seek to either keep or discard the policy changes specific to entertainment. Charlessauer 08:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Editorials, Book Reviews, and NPOV on Wikinews

Could people who would like to begin a group discussion of how we would do any of these things on Wikinews please sign their names below. The idea of the group is that you are for trying to figure out how to experiment with doing these issues, including what policies may need to be revised, and how we would do so.

• --David Shankbone 15:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
• --Charlessauer 17:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
• --TheCustomOfLife 19:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
• --Brian McNeil / ^talk 09:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• --TUFKAAP 21:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• --Lankiveil 09:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC).
• --Jacques Divol 10:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

comments

• Please do not open the box of NPOV matter. It's a very bad idea. Wikinews NPOV is unique even if very difficult to achieve. Without NPOV Wikinews will lost this unique quality. I understand that editorials and book reviews are very valuable for people (books for free for example) but very selfish too. Wikinews do no need Editorials, editorials are everywhere in all regular newspapers, its a trap, a pitfall very dangerous and so POV. It's a cyclic discution on Wikinews (in french wikinews too). If your goal is to attract people, it's not the righ way. Internet is full of WebLogs and e-newspapers where POV, book reviews (advertisment in fact) et editorials are available. There's just one WikinewsJacques Divol 20:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Jacques, the idea is to discuss, and what you write above is that you do not want the discussion to take place. Wikinews needs to experiment with different ideas to see what will work and what will not. Our current format is not working and it is obvious. So instead of trying to battle those of us looking to try different ideas, to make this a fully-functioning website that maybe takes a few more risks in order to innovate, allow us to experiment. There is rigomortis on this site with its thinking, and that is why nobody reads us. Many of us want to experiment. --David Shankbone 20:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not the first discution on the subject, and remember NPOV can't be removed. If we remove NPOV, wikinews is no more a WIkimedia project, it's the rule. You are not the first wanting to open the Pandora's box. It's of course my own POV, and discution can take place but you must understand and know all the consequences if you stop NPOV. Jacques Divol 20:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

That's just it: you are arguing right now "Don't even discuss it." This is simply discussion. NPOV is not what makes us a Wikimedia project, and you have no idea what is even under discussion. Instead of arguing as if you know what the idea are about wait to see how the discussion goes before coming out and saying, "We will be dropped by Wikimedia! Don't do anything different! Don't even discuss it!" --David Shankbone 20:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, David, but you are not the first to come with that idea. But i'll wait to read your new ideas, you seem very advanced in your project. I am sorry (again) to be a bit hard but as i am one af the oldest here (even if i do not write often) and i have some memories... Jacques Divol 20:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand your concerns. I believe there are ideas around this that we can attempt to do, without disrupting our core policies too much, including NPOV. I simply want to figure out how we can do them, and whether we can tweak policy to try to experiment a little. --David Shankbone 20:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• I'm just sick of being around people who would rather sweep the issue of expanding Wikinews and its coverage (and, yes, its policies) under the rug. It's not a bad thing to change. In fact, being adaptable will be our ticket to actually succeed, because let's be honest, apart from big news events and stuff me and David Shankbone do, we don't succeed. We flounder and it's about damn time it changed. TheCustomOfLife 21:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I get that people want to discuss this without negative this and that for the purpose of fostering ideas, which I understand, and discussion is a good thing (even if i disagree with it very strongly), but how do you plan to introduce any sort of opinion without massive flamewars? For every piece of opinion there is someone with the oposite opinion. Since everyone can edit, how do you satisfy everyones opinion? Bawolff ☺☻ 00:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think what we are suggesting is very containable and compartmentalized. Rather than changing policy we are asking for an addendum. It is an addendum that is specific to book reviews and it is specific to entertainment. To be as accommodating as possible I suggested that even those should be limited to essentially an “academic” analysis. Further, I conceded to changing the name of the review to “book analysis”. The addendum to policy, then, would only apply to book reviews in the entertainment section. That addendum would only apply to book reviews. Any actual opinion would reside under the “opinion” tab, if anywhere.

There is no reason why a compartmentalized and containable policy addendum couldn't be created for editorials as well. Strict rules could limit what type of editorials are allowed, limit where the editorials are maintained, and set the criteria for what credentials are needed to write editorials. Administrators and monitors could guard against abuses. All editorials could contain a statement indicating that the article expresses an opinion and that Wikinews, as such, does not endorse or subscribe to the stated opinion.

With contained addendum to the policy, linked to different locations, the original NPOV would still apply. Exactly like any other news agency, anything other than editorials or reviews, would be obliged to follow NPOV. For all news articles strict adherence to NPOV is essential to maintaining the credibility and integrity of Wikinews. Charlessauer 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews cannot and should not ever stray from the key WMF principle of NPOV. This seems to be another case of users taking the view that to be successful we have to mimic what other news organisations do. However, our project has unique considerations and so we can't simply see what others do and copy it. If people want to disregard NPOV then they can setup their own site and do what they like. Wikinews is never going to be turned into a soapbox, the WMF won't let that happen. This isn't sweeping "the issue of expanding Wikinews and its coverage (and, yes, its policies) under the rug", it's appreciating that the project cannot simply morph into something else if we're struggling to do a good job of what we do currently. There is more than enough opportunity within the scope of the project to find exciting new ways of enhancing our coverage. If people want to air their views on a topic then start a blog, not here, not now, not ever. Adambro 07:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That policy was written when only Wikipedia existed. I don't think anyone envisioned that a news source would ever come out of the idea at that time. While neutrality is a hallmark for good journalistic reporting, you seem to miss the point on entertainment reporting. There are opinions in every paper. Does it mean everyone writes an opinion? No. There need to be checks and balances for that. And likewise, I think we need to bring Sue Gardner into this discussion. As a former newswoman, she would understand how to tailor Wikinews for today's journalism industry more than most of us here, as most of us aren't trained formally in journalism. I think the WMF may be open to talks on how to move Wikinews into the next level more than you realize. TheCustomOfLife 09:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Mike, I would like to point out that meta:Neutral point of view is a foundation level policy that mentions three projects only, one of those being Wikinews, so the whole "they weren't thinking of Wikinews at that time" is not valid. Cheers, --SVT