User talk:Pi zero/Archive 17

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Please do not edit the contents of this page. It is for historical reference only.


I was created a page with "User name policy".Opologies for that.

I will start the discussion about "Prohibeted user names" on the following page .Thanq

(Tricorner (talk) 07:16, 11 May 2019 (UTC))

dd - (talk) 09:14, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Google discontinues cooperation with Huawei

Hi. Whilst lurking in the background, I came across what I think was an error by the abuse filter: Special:AbuseLog/10562. I might be wrong but it looks like the user was trying to create a genuine article and was prevented from doing so. I have created the article and left them a note, but I thought it might be worth sharing with you. —Green Giant (talk) 06:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@Green Giant: I've never been fluent in abuse-filter-ese. Curiously, the entire article was afaics a copyvio of the second source; I've removed the offending text, tagged the article, and written up reviewer comments on the article talk. --Pi zero (talk) 13:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Ah, it didn’t occur to me it might be a copyvio. As for the filter, I think we should keep an eye on it and if anything like this happens again I’ll ask at Phabricator. Cheers. Green Giant (talk) 14:10, 20 May 2019 (UTC)


Thankyou Note: Thankyou Pi zero for helping me out by providing me with the pillars of Wikinews. Much appreciated!--FightingForRight (talk) 07:08, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

delete my account

Hi, can you permanently delete my user page and also the discussion page ?? User:Massimo Jorge Chiacchio 20:12, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

@Massimo Jorge Chiacchio: Seeing no difficulty in principle, deleted. --Pi zero (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

thank you (Anonimo) 22:5, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Accreditation request: Deh Saaduddin

Hi! Thank you for your comment and vote on my accreditation request. I am willing to contribute to Wikinews with passion. However, in my early request, I have not mentioned interests relative to Wikinews but if you are able to check my user ID in Wikipedia, it proves that I am sincerely and willing to contribute to WikiNews and all projects of WikiMedia Foundation. I truly love Wiki community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dehgel (talkcontribs) 13:50, 10 June 2019‎ (UTC)

How you read news

I would like to read news every day, and am looking for help. How do you read your news? What software do you use? (I use mPages RSS client for Firefox, but I would be happy to learn what you use.) --Gryllida (talk) 00:22, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

@Gryllida: I subscribe to some blogs, but only one of them is at all systematically related to news (it's about journalism). I semi-watch some TV news. It used to be, when I went looking for news stories to cover on Wikinews, and looking for sources for those stories, I'd use the Google news aggregator — but as I've been trying to get back into writing here just recently, I find the gnews interface is almost useless compared to what it used to be, because instead of listing all the articles available on a story, they seem to have decided to provide just one article on each story. I've been experimenting with DuckDuckGo, but if there's a way to get good news-ish results from that engine, I haven't figured it out yet. --Pi zero (talk) 01:48, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for sharing this, Pi zero. I didn't get the thought about google news. Please give me example search query and example result (and how it would be better to have it differently) Gryllida (talk) 02:31, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Well... now that you ask, I'm looking again at gnews output and not finding the problem I had last weekend. So I'm not sure what the difficulty was, there; I'm wondering if I could somehow have effectively disabled javascript. --Pi zero (talk) 02:37, 21 June 2019 (UTC)


Not sure if it is permitted by the election rules but I’d like to counter-nominate you for ArbCom, if you are willing to stand. — Green Giant (talk) 06:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

@Green Giant: I am indeed willing to stand. I'd be honored if you would nominate me. I see no obstacle; even self-nomination is not terribly uncommon, the de facto basic need being for confirmation of the nominee's willingness to stand. --Pi zero (talk) 06:50, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Can we get a bot that reports latest news on special page?

I think the title says it all, I was thinking of keeping up withsources of news by fetching links and putting them on a special page, and that in theory should help the working of Wikinews. Let me know if there's any complication (note: maybe this is the wrong place to place a suggestion.) --Hoo lee sheet (talk) 13:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Asking the question here doesn't bother me. As it happens, bots aren't my thing; perhaps Gryllida might have a thought on this? --Pi zero (talk) 18:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
There is a news feed at ##news (and there was another one at #wikinews-feeds ) at the chat that may be of interest.
  • after connecting, move your mouse over 'freenode' and click the '+' sign, there specify the channel name with one or two hashes as needed (this is important to have the correct number of hashes)
Let me know if you'd like to resume the one at #wikinews-feeds, I think the original bot owner disappeared and I can run a replacement.
Alternatively I think that it is possible to output this to a special page, if IRC is not convenient for some reason. If so, I would also like to know this. Gryllida (talk) 23:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reply. as for the channel ##news, I think it's enough, but for convenience maybe it's better to make one specifically made for wikinewsies.
IRC doesn't bother me as it was ported to all major platforms. The main concern here I think is whether ##wikinews-feed should continue or not. Let me know if the effort worth the benefits otherwise ##news is enough. --Hoo lee sheet (talk) 13:50, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

my page

i a sorry about the page i posted it is my first time posting and i tryed my best.please dont be mad at me. also the page wont be resubmitted for review Conor200673 (talk) 16:32, 8 July 2019 (UTC) Conor200673

@Conor200673: Not to worry. Starting out at Wikinews, one has to learn the basics, to get to where one can write simple articles and they'll pass review. Once you reach that point, things typically get much easier (not that we ever stop learning). --Pi zero (talk) 16:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Special permission?!

Hi Pi zero,

Can you grant me a special permission to insult one of the wikinewsies. --Don't call 911 (talk) 19:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Lol. Folks can sometimes get on each other's nerves, especially in the intense environment of a newsroom. Which wikinewsie do you wish to insult, and why? --Pi zero (talk) 21:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Not anyone really. I was thinking if you grant me an insult attack, I can hang it up in my user page to intimidate whoever wants to challenge me (Something like "Weapons: Insult (x1)"). Now that I think about it, I shouldn't have played that game for +5 hours straight. Btw do you issue insult permissions? --Don't call 911 (talk) 23:17, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
@WhaatTF: We ask people not to make things unnecessarily personal. Note that, instead of Assume Good Faith, we have Never assume. That page did not exist in the early days. We had no AGF, but no explicit replacement for it either. And we found out the hard way that an explicit replacement is needed — the social stability of the community requires it. It's not an accident that our Never assume page emphasizes civility. "Treat people as well as circumstances allow, even when (as will sometimes, sadly, happen) it becomes necessary to escort them to the exit." --Pi zero (talk) 00:19, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
@Pi zero: And hence the saying "When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me." Thank you for your tolerance. you really doing an awesome job running this community! --Don't call 911 (talk) 00:56, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Interview's transcript

The transcript of the first thirteen minutes of the audio is now available. The plan is, I will email you the markdown file. I would hope you copyedit the markdown file and send me in the morning, my time (before you go to sleep). I will put it on GitHub to compare the differences, and hopefully, finish the entire thing tomorrow night.
•–• 21:10, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea whether I'll be able to meet this schedule; we'll see. --Pi zero (talk) 22:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Alas. I chose to review the tropical-storm article, which seemed a plausible choice as it was obviously going to go stale very quickly, and it chewed up my evening (the review didn't turn out to be as easy as I'd hoped). --Pi zero (talk) 03:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
•–• 15:44, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Trying my best. --Pi zero (talk) 15:45, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Just wanted to know if you were on it, or chose not to.
•–• 16:32, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


Hi. What is with the section "In Category:Published without formal review" in the newsroom? I looked at a few of them and they looked fine. Cheers, --SVTCobra 22:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Huh?? There shouldn't ever be anything in that section... <goes to look> --Pi zero (talk) 00:01, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: I'd say they have just released an "upgrade" to the software platform that fucks up by failing to exclude sighted pages. I wouldn't dare point it out to them, because I wouldn't trust them not to just make things even worse. But we should disable that section of the newsroom for now, since with the DPL not working right the output is worse than useless. --Pi zero (talk) 00:08, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
OK, I just uploaded a screenshot, but I'll delete it again since it seems you see the problem. Cheers, --SVTCobra 00:12, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Empty dated categories

Why are empty dated categories kept? --DannyS712 (talk) 02:51, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

The infrastructure is set up on the expectation that all date categories exist. It's easier to be able to rely on them all being there; which is in contrast to the situation with topic categories, where adding more of them increases the administrative overhead of maintaining the topic hierarchy (though we're very careful, when creating new topic categories, to minimize this increase). --Pi zero (talk) 02:56, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh. Also, I took a look at Category:United States and as wondering if I could try to reorganize it to decrease that overhead - eg separating out categories related to the government to Category:United States government, or creating a new category for all of the individual people categories. Thoughts? --DannyS712 (talk) 03:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I've thought about that possibility myself, but haven't acted on it because it would make that part the hierarchy a lot harder to maintain. More complicated = a lot harder to maintain. Keeping everything very simple is a priority. (It used to be we were very hesitant to create new categories at all, before deployment of the {{w}} template, whose interaction with the category infrastructure is multi-faceted.) --Pi zero (talk) 03:27, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Is there a better place to suggest this? There is also Category:2007 Cricket World Cup that I just found - other than Bob Woolmer not murdered, says Scotland Yard detectives, which in my opinion doesn't belong in that category, the other articles should be removed from the parent categories (cricket and 2007). Where is the best place to discuss this? --DannyS712 (talk) 03:34, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't follow you. I've explained in broad terms some of the primal reasons we mostly don't do intersection categories. Cases where we do are generally grandfathered, case where it was done in the very early days of the project before the reasons not to were fully appreciated. I'm not sure what point you're making about the 2007 Cricket World Cup category. (Looking at that article, it does seem to be connected to that event, btw.) It's a specific event; we do have categories, sometimes, about specific events. We a separate category for each US presidential election. There's a tension, btw, between our desire to avoid interaction categories which tend to make the category hierarchy unmanageable, and the inadequacy of the formal intersection of two categories. As a small illustration of the latter, we have a Category:Politics and conflicts, and a Category:Canada, but an article may properly belong to both of those categories yet not belong in a hypothetical Category:Canadian politics category. The difference between those two is really quite subtle — and whenever possible we want to avoid introducing into our category infrastructure any subtle considerations that aren't already in there. --Pi zero (talk) 03:56, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I think I understand. Can I propose a category, Category:United States government, to subcategorize multiple existing categories (remove them from Category:United States, add them to the new category?) The list of categories I would move over is below. Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 03:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Each of these is a part of the US government, either an agency, department, commission, branch, etc (rather than merely being associated with it). Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 03:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
That's an interesting notion. I'd like to think about that for a bit. --Pi zero (talk) 03:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

News articles by person

It took a while, but y'all broke me and now I am obsessing about categories, too. I need some guidance before moving forward on categories for people. I have started a discussion at Category talk:News articles by person. I have a few questions about standard protocol. Cheers, --SVTCobra 14:27, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Another question. Should media files ever be in categories typically used for mainspace articles? --SVTCobra 18:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: I'm actually not sure, off hand, what we've been doing in that regard. --Pi zero (talk) 18:37, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Well, I have removed a few which were categorized as Category:Wackynews and Category:Internet. Cheers, --SVTCobra 18:42, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: If there are some, I think I would be inclined to accept the practice, keep them and perhaps add others when it seems appropriate. I don't think images in any topic category would cause any problem for the DPLs. --Pi zero (talk) 19:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

No colon in UTC time

Ah, yes, I knew it was familiar. It goes back to a pair of very bold edits by back in 2005. The wording "Use a colon to separate the hours and minutes, except when using UTC when no separator is to be used." has stood ever since. Crazy. --SVTCobra 20:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

We may be the only people on the planet who don't use a colon separator in UTC times. --SVTCobra 20:41, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
As a matter of curiosity: Those two IPs (differing in the last two bits) are now assigned to somewhere in Kansas; but, looking at their other edits, I'm guessing then they were assigned to somewhere in Scotland. --Pi zero (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
If you are thinking it was McNeil, I think you are on the wrong track. He would not have asked this. And just as a matter of trivia, he was based in Belgium at the time. Cheers, --SVTCobra 21:16, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Hm. Well, I don't insist on Scotland; I'd still guess not North America, though, with a reasonable likelihood of someone in or connected to the UK. Agreed, the particular edit you reference wouldn't be him (though there's a reason IPs are called "anonymous"). Also not him, the first three edits in this history. --Pi zero (talk) 21:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
But yes, I do agree, it's the rare American who would involve themselves in only non-American articles (Bali, South Asia, South Africa, England, Ireland). Also, there is the spelling of internationalised without a 'z'. Nevertheless, what should we do about the style guide? I'd rather not sift through the archives to make a change, but should we make the colon optional just as it is for the 24 hour clock? I also don't like that 12:00 a.m and 12:00 p.m. are essentially outlawed (I guess they thought people would get confused which was noon and which was midnight? Cheers, --SVTCobra 22:11, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
There's no reason to change it. We've done it the way we do it for many years, and it's simple. --Pi zero (talk) 22:17, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Sorting within {{Topic cat}}

Are you serious with this? This is a thing? I have just been dropping parameters (such as wikidata) into the template and relying on it sorting it out. Please tell me I don't have sort the parameters by hand when I edit a {{Topic cat}}. Cheers. --SVTCobra 02:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: You don't have to. I find it's easier to keep track of which parameters have been used for a given topic if the sister links are kept in "order" (the order used to display them, that is, which is alphabetical not counting the wiki- or wik- prefix if there is one.) It's kind of like writing a {{source}} citation with one parameter per line: you don't have to, but it's easier to deal with later. --Pi zero (talk) 03:45, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Political parties

Should Villepin be added to the UMP category? He formed his own party in 2010, but he was a prominent member since 2002, and notably when all our coverage of him was written. This is in the same theory how we handle presidents and prime ministers. The association is always there, even when you leave or retire. I say yes, he should. But it is notably different in the way sportspeople are being handled. Cristiano Ronaldo is probably the prime example. We have coverage of him with at least three clubs for which we have categories. He is, however, only listed with his current club. I think his association with those clubs should be permanent, especially when we have coverage. I think we know Acagastya (t · c · b) feels very differently about this. --SVTCobra 19:32, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: A compromise, which I've been mulling over, might be to categorize the person only by their current affiliation but mention Wikinews-relevant past affiliations, perhaps in the usage note (because I'd rather the intro stays very short). --Pi zero (talk) 19:47, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't want it in the intro (nor a usage note for that matter). You often emphasize future researchers when talking about categories. If one is researching Real Madrid via Category:Real Madrid, Cristiano Ronaldo does not come up as an associated person (subcategory) even though he holds numerous club records and won multiple Ballon d'Or while playing for them. His achievements at Manchester United are also significant. But are you saying political parties should be the same as sports clubs? Cheers, --SVTCobra 20:10, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

I have not read the entire thread, but what I said about football clubs: I think I did not mention about politics on the talk page of Cristiano Ronaldo. I would not conflict those two. I have two different standards for them? Yes. If the politician found the party, that category should be there. Similarly if anyone were to own a club, they should be in the category. If we had the category for Roman Abramov, it would be under Chelsea F.C.
•–• 23:28, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree, he could be there as owner. And he could be in a Russian political party at the same time. (I have heard the name, of course, and know film characters have been based on him, but my off-hand knowledge of Roman Abramovich is quite limited). But, as you acknowledge, the two different standards is the core of the question. What is the fundamental reason it should not just be one standard? Cheers, --SVTCobra 23:37, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

PM or President

I am not a Francophile but which is more important in France? I think there's a definite imbalance (and they are one of the few Western nations to have both afaik). --SVTCobra 02:04, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: Presidents of France is next; I'm working on it now. Some countries have just one, or just the other, and if they have both it can be kind of random which is more significant. When I started on this vein earlier today I didn't even recognize the face or name of the current PM of France, whereas I knew both for the current president. --Pi zero (talk) 02:11, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
I jumped the gun on Category:The Republicans (France), but it is one of the largest parties in France, so I hope we get a few (3) articles before we have to delete. Cheers, --SVTCobra 02:32, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: When I occasionally create a category and later discover that it doesn't have three published articles, I usually just leave it be. --Pi zero (talk) 02:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
The current PM is Édouard Philippe and he's part of The Republicans. So I've got that going for me, which is nice --SVTCobra 02:44, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Media in cats

At the bottom of Category:Canada you will find ten images from a user who resigned in the wake of w:WP:FRAMBAN. It is about Team Canada at the Paralympics in London 2012. I intend to remove the category "Canada" from them. I hope that is uncontroversial enough. Cheers, --SVTCobra 23:52, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: I don't understand. Why do you want to remove the category from the images? Are they not related to Canada? And what does resignation have to do with it? --Pi zero (talk) 00:16, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
The resignation has nothing to do with it. I just didn't know if you were aware of all the drama over at our bigger sister and this was just an awkward way of bringing it up in passing.
Category:Canada and the like are too broad for images, imho, unless it is literally of a national symbol. It sets a bad precedent. Any or all of the media files we host could be tagged for a country, state, or city. Media in categories ought to be spot-on, such as Category:2012 Summer Paralympics or Category:Canadian paralympic team. Would we be having the same debate if these images were in Category:Sports? Also, one of the photos is of photographer. --SVTCobra 00:35, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Oops, I just looked at Category:Sports and there is a ton of media. It either invalidates my point or describes it as a wider problem. I think it is the latter. They should be reclassified to their specific sport. --SVTCobra 00:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Re sports images, moving them to narrower categories seems reasonable; I have no objection. Re the Canada images, I take it they're about the Canadian representatives at the Paralymics, so Canada as a whole is the right area. Again I've no objection to shifting them to narrower categories. There are, I think, some situations where we'd tend to use a general category at first and shift to something narrower at later opportunity.

I'm somewhat aware of a major disaster playing out on Wikipedia, due, afaict, to the Foundation's fundamental failures. I've known about those failures for years, of course, but didn't know a way to fix them, so have concentrated on problems at Wikinews and Wikibooks that are far smaller (though vast on the scale of what an individual person might attempt). --Pi zero (talk) 02:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom 2019

I believe you have already seen the results, but well, I should formally inform who has been elected and, well you are. And the new term begins on August 4.
•–• 04:57, 31 July 2019 (UTC)


Are you going to make time for our pending WN:OR? Cheers, --SVTCobra 16:10, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes. And there's another OR piece at an earlier stage of processing I desperately need to get to. And I need to grocery-shop today. And I need to fix the slipped belt on the mower. And I need to — well. Yes, I'll get to it. --Pi zero (talk) 16:25, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
I am not pushing you. I just think you are much more diplomatic than I. My opinion of it is, well, to be kind, not favorable. I tried to elicit improvement of the article to minimal effect. Cheers, --SVTCobra 16:34, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Is this the upcoming OR you were alluding to? If so, well, damn! This is a big story. I won't mind stepping up and being the 'bad guy' on the other piece. --SVTCobra 23:08, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: No, actually, the Russian piece is a complete surprise to me. I'm concerned about some possibly-fundamental problems I see with it, which I'm trying to write up a comment on now. We'll just have to see what happens next. --Pi zero (talk) 23:37, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
I really enjoyed the tutoring of paid contributors openly at Wikimedia events. That was a nice touch. And, then, to think these are the people complaining of a problem ... well ... --SVTCobra 23:45, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I know I took the easy review today. I am a bit rusty, so I didn't want something too challenging. Cheers, --SVTCobra 23:00, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

After I agreed to accept the review bit — I didn't claim to be ready to actually do reviews, but conceded I probably understood enough not to use the bit for things before I was ready for them — it was iirc several months later I used it for my first review (pushed into it then by someone who was concerned their article would go stale on the queue). And quite a long time after that before I started reviewing OR. Easing cautiously into review makes sense to me. --Pi zero (talk) 23:08, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
I was grandfathered into the 'review bit' as it was created after my admin, but I did review quite a few articles under your tutelage a few years ago in my other spurt of activity. But I was thinking today's nominees, the other of which is the tragic shooting with a lot of sources. The OR piece, I felt was lazy. I would have bounced it. It is not hard to say who in the lede. FFS, Paul was there. All he had to do was write "it was attended by a mixture of people who run haunted houses for Halloween and families with kids who wanted to see the frights and makeup". And he talked about how he was finally going to use his credentials and sounded all excited on the water cooler. Sometimes, we have photo-essays from events like this which have very little text, but at least the photos are high-res and plentiful. If I avoided it was because I didn't want to fail OR, not because OR is a difficult review in cases like this. And frankly, I don't care if Paul sees this. I was disappointed.
Well, after that vent. I'll just reiterate I was talking about the El Paso story when I said I took the easy one. Cheer, --SVTCobra 00:18, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: Truthfully, I wasn't happy about the who-in-lede deficit. If I'd gotten to the article a bunch of days earlier I might have bounced it for that too, but I didn't feel it was worth losing the article over, and because things were running so late I wasn't comfortable giving it a revise-and-resubmit by then. --Pi zero (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


Did you mean to revert the archiving bot with this edit? Cheers, --SVTCobra 15:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

No. Fixed-I-hope. --Pi zero (talk) 16:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Peter MacKay

FYI: I didn't skip him. I added him to Category:Conservative Party of Canada incidentally as I populated the cat I added a few days ago. (Pro tip, don't add Canadian political parties unless you want to parse national parties from provincial parties which carry the same name but are autonomous.) I have never been happier about the US two-party system than when I populated that category ... I'll get to Peter when I reach the 'P's ... Cheers, --SVTCobra 23:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: I guessed you'd get to it later in alphabetical order, but since I was there, I added the template. I didn't do the sort key, though, and also figured you could check for whatever I didn't think of when it came to you in order. --Pi zero (talk) 23:57, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
I am using Category:News articles by person. I am on the second page of 3 (200 on each), but since people move back and forth as I alphabetize them, I figure if half go forward and half back, I am actually more than half way through all the people. I think this theory is valid as I encounter more and more people I already updated (and when I do I try to add a caption as I wasn't doing that early on). Cheers, --SVTCobra 00:25, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
I'd guessed you were doing it that way. A few days back I think I discovered a person category that wasn't in news articles by person; so there may be a few of those, and eventually we should try to pick them up, somehow (will have to give it some thought when the time comes).

Back-of-the-envelope. Suppose the total number of people on the list is , the personal and family names are all uniformly randomly distributed through the alphabet, and when you started they were all alphabetized by personal name (which I get the impression is pretty close to true). When you finish the letter M, you're halfway through the alphabet, therefor you've done people. Half of those, , got realphabetized into the second half of the alphabet. So, at that point, you should have ahead of you people, one third of which you've already done once. --Pi zero (talk) 01:06, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Right, so my theory, I was exactly halfway (well this morning when I started page two) is bogus? Well, I am on 'M' but it is really early on page two. But names aren't random (a lot more Johns and Joes than Erics and Xaviers). And with just 600 people, random will leave a good amount of error. But I am confident I will complete this before I need another Wiki-break. I also discovered a straggler, I forget who I was updating, but it took me to Category:Politicians and I saw Angela Eagle and I knew immediately she was not in news articles by person (because I was past A and E. That in turn led me down a rabbit hole on Commons and I finally encountered , which really isn't here or there, but previously you've been surprised I didn't know Fæ.
I know I resisted the captions and credits, but once I turned them into "newslike" items instead of encyclopedic "file photo of John Doe" I started enjoying doing them. Plus, I see it as a benefit if we don't have the same generic profile pic as all the sisters do. I have to thank User:Acagastya for this. Let's show the people in Category:News articles by person as they are when they make news, just as the sportspeople are in action in Acagastya's choice of photos. It may not be as exciting as a sliding tackle in football, but it sure beats what amounts to a passport photo. Cheers, --SVTCobra 01:45, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Making it even more fun, family names may be non-randomly distributed in a different way from personal names. For example, if first names are weighted toward the first half of the alphabet, and last names are weighted toward the second half, then disproportionately many names that started in the first half would end up in the second. [That's supposing the two names are independently distributed, which I s'pose they might not be.]

I like this phrasing, "Let's show [...] people [...] as they are when they make news". --Pi zero (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

The answer to a question you didn't really ask

wikt:religiophobia ... a good word for a Sunday. Cheers, --SVTCobra 14:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Lol. As a logophile, I love it. Though we wouldn't use it here as it's a non-medical use of suffix -phobia. --Pi zero (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Is this non-medical use? --SVTCobra 00:15, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: Yes. We should fix that. --Pi zero (talk) 00:20, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Check user

I am glad I don't have check-user privileges because I surely would be unable to resist checking all those new account creations (locally created, btw) which look prepped to hit us with more spam about mobility scooters or SEO. I'd get banned because I don't think it is supposed be used proactively. --SVTCobra 18:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


I have to disagree with you on this. The w:Commonwealth of Nations is not the same as the w:Commonwealth realm. Only the realm share the Queen as head of state. Indeed there are twice as many countries in the Commonwealth of Nations, including India, for example, which has its own head of state, namely the w:President of India. Cheers, --SVTCobra 02:21, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

As understand it, the two terms have very different meanings. The Commonwealth of Nations is the collective term for the fifty-odd nations, each of which is a Commonwealth realm. Australia is a Commonwealth realm, meaning it belongs to the Commonwealth of Nations. --Pi zero (talk) 02:25, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Only 16 of the fifty-odd are realms. But it's still not correct to refer to the 16 collectively as the Commonwealth realm, afaics. I don't think there is any term for the 16 collectively. --Pi zero (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
I suppose the current version works. I just think it might be a bit confusing to bring up the Commonwealth of Nations at all, as it seems to be little more than a club for countries with no higher purpose or objective than to promote democracy. Whereas, for Commonwealth realms, the head-of-state is an integral part of the nation-state structure. All the realms happen to be members of the Commonwealth of Nations, but as far as I know, it is not a requirement. Cheers, --SVTCobra 13:40, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: Afaik you're correct, it is not a requirement. I wondered about not mentioning the Commonwealth of Nations, but it is potentially useful to clarify the difference between "Commonwealth nation" and "Commonwealth realm", which evidently we've had to put some significant effort into sorting out ourselves. I've taken another stab at it. --Pi zero (talk) 16:09, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


where is the admin postboard on this wiki? i've never used wikinews before. Computer Fizz (talk) 04:06, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

@Computer Fizz: WN:AAA --Pi zero (talk) 04:09, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Category:Benazir Bhutto

I saw that page in RC, and thought, do we have a straight forward way, by using DPL or anything otherwise, to compile a list of all the deceased politicians? (talk) 19:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Presumably we'd need a category for dead people. --Pi zero (talk) 19:24, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
I thought of creating a category, then I thought "isn't that encyclopædic?" Then I thought "It is also newsworthy for research." Then I thought maybe we have a way to. Then I asked. (talk) 19:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
People die without us noticing all the time. If they have been out of the news for a long time it just happens. However, I don't know how strong our cross-wiki integration is, but such data should be possible to pull from Wikidata as they have both date of birth and date of death. --SVTCobra 20:01, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
My hope, sooner or later, is to keep locally whatever information we choose to keep, and have a semi-automated assistant that can compare what we have (for some specific category, say) to what wikidata says about it and, if it detects any discrepancies, offer the human operator various choices of what to do about it. --Pi zero (talk) 20:07, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, they change citizenships and political alliance, and we update it. Question is, it it worth categorising? (talk) 20:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


to bug u but i started a user space for a florida man castrating another man he was arrested. again apoligizes Baozon90 (talk) 14:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

@Baozon90: I made some edits to your page, setting up basic elements of the page format. Set up the framework for the source citations, and did one of them for you to demonstrate how it's done. --Pi zero (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Merging histories of pages

Previously, I've left this task to you, but I think I've figured out the mechanics. Delete the undesirable page. Then move that deleted page after it has been deleted so that only the history moves. If that is correct, I will proceed with a 'duplicate' category I apparently created in 2007. Cheers, --SVTCobra 16:00, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: That doesn't sound right. Just a moment and I'll write up some notes about merging histories. --Pi zero (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Caveat administrator. History merge is the foremost example of an admin operation that can be effectively irreversible on-wiki, because it destroys the wiki's explicit record of which revision came from which of the merged pages. Regardless of whether anyone would ever actually want to undo the operation, the missing information can make life more difficult for some later wiki-archaeologist who, for whatever reason, wants to reconstruct just what happened.
  • We never do history merges involving published articles, exactly because it can permanently screw things up. Rarely we've done history merges on unpublished articles, when the situation is especially straightforward.
  • Moving a page does not affect deleted revisions.
  • Here's the procedure I prefer; which is not, as I recall, what en.wp recommends.
Let's say the two pages are called "keep" and "retire".
  1. Before I start, I look at the histories of both pages to make sure I understand how much possible confusion will be caused by the merge. Best of all is when all the edits to "retire" took place before "keep" was created. Other obvious possibilities are that it's not a big deal and you're fine going ahead, or it'd be a nightmare and you decide on some other course of action. On one occasion on Wikibooks, I think, I actually left a note on the talk page explaining how to reconstruct which revisions were which if one ever wanted to.
  2. Move "keep" to "retire". Whether or not you leave a redirect on this move may depend on circumstances; more on that immediately below. The software will balk at performing the move because the target page already exists, requiring you to check an additional box that says, yes, go ahead and delete the existing target page. Go ahead and do that, deleting the old "retire".
    Pros and cons of leaving a redirect:
    • If you don't leave a redirect, anyone looking for "keep" during the operation will not be redirected to where the page content is. This may be the least-bad alternative if the pages are in category space, since the contents of the category will stay at "keep". I tend to just get it over with quickly to minimize the chance anyone will look for "keep" in the middle of the operation.
    • If you do leave a redirect, then at the end of the process that redirect will get deleted and will be a bit of extra cruft permanently retained by the wiki platform. My own neatness-reflex doesn't like this, so I usually don't leave a redirect.
  3. Call up the revision history of "retire", and undelete the deleted revisions of it. This is the actual merge operation, creating a mishmash of all the revisions from both pages. Gulp.
  4. Move "retire" to "keep". Without leaving a redirect (reminder: we never do this with published articles).
  • Iirc, long ago when I read Wikipedia about this, they recommended to move "retire" to "keep", deleting "keep" in the process, then undelete the revisions of "keep" and edit the page to bring the latest revision of "keep" to the top.
There's more to that than I realized when I started writng that, and I'm not even sure I remembered to mention everything. --Pi zero (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
Oh yeah, here's a twist: there might already be some deleted revisions of "retire" before you start. If that's so, then when you move "keep" on top of it and the existing revisions of "retire" get deleted, the wiki software will lose track of which revisions of "retire" had previously been deleted and which were only just now deleted. Fun. --Pi zero (talk) 17:02, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, in light of what you have said, I will explain the situation and the categories involved and await your recommendation. Perhaps there's nothing worth keeping, categories usually have precious few edits (until the last month or so 😉). So here it is:

  1. Category:Chris Dodd was created by Zanium on 1 June 2007.
  2. Category:Christopher Dodd was created by yours truly on 18 December 2007.
  3. I cannot recall if it was because I was unaware of the previous category or if I felt the more formal name was appropriate. It is probably the latter (although it is a notion I no longer hold) because within 20 minutes, I redirected the old (Chris) category to the new (Christopher).
  4. Regardless of my motivation, it was the wrong thing to do, since it should have been moved/renamed.
  5. The Chris Dodd redirect kept pointing to the Category:Chris Dodd which is how I discovered this, however, no articles are in that category (for how long I don't know).
  6. I fixed the double redirect last night, so the question is what to do with Category:Chris Dodd. Well, delete of course, but should the histories be merged?

I await your advice. Cheers, --SVTCobra 17:20, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: I'd merge as above, thus catching up the revisions by Zanimum and Zachary. --Pi zero (talk) 17:37, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
OK, I will move ahead with caution, but as there's no overlapping history besides the redirect, and only two previous edits involved, I think this will be a good way to get my feet wet. Cheers, --SVTCobra 17:47, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
I need the For Dummies version. I deleted Category:Chris Dodd (retire). So now I move Category:Christopher Dodd to Category:Chris Dodd? And then back? --SVTCobra 18:03, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: Move Category:Christopher Dodd to Category:Chris Dodd. Then look at the revision history of Category:Chris Dodd; it will say that there are some deleted revisions. Undelete those. Then move it back to Category:Christopher Dodd. --Pi zero (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
I did it! I think I deserve a cold beer on this fairly hot and humid August afternoon. Thanks for you help! Cheers, --SVTCobra 18:48, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
Oh, if you ever formalize these instructions, there's a "review revisions" button that needs to be clicked. Cheers, --SVTCobra 18:50, 22 August 2019 (UTC)


You should probably just indef them, it's an xwiki lta. :) Praxidicae (talk) 14:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah, well. We do try to sow good will; but, since they've self-identified that way on en.wv. Saves some steps. --Pi zero (talk) 14:48, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Nonstop spam

The spam is incessant today. How often does it get this bad? BTW, are you interested in a cheap Breitling watch? I know where you can get one. --SVTCobra 19:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, it's reaching stupid levels. I can't keep up. In the last hour I have done nothing but block and delete. Have the spam filters completely broken down? Who do we ask for help? --SVTCobra 20:23, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: When I got up this morning I spent a substantial time cleaning up spam, not from the whole of overnight, but from since the last time you'd done a sweep. It's been this bad a few times. Last time, Green Giant set up a new abuse filter to cover it, but evidently it doesn't cover the current deluge. --Pi zero (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
It's slowed down since you came back online. But that hour was crazy. I'd block and delete one, and there'd be two more in RC waiting for me. I checked the log. I have blocked over 75 this calendar day. --SVTCobra 20:52, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
@SVTCobra: Btw, you can see from the Special:AbuseLog, the filters are doing a lot. --Pi zero (talk) 01:29, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

User page in News by Region

Hi. I cannot figure out what it is about User:Anti-Quasar's page which makes them show up in Category:News articles by region. Maybe you have an idea. Cheers, --SVTCobra 20:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, I tried. --Pi zero (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, it worked. Thanks. --SVTCobra 21:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)