User talk:Heavy Water

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-- Wikinews Welcome (talk) 18:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Hong Kong Police conduct hundreds of arrests of protestors

Hi. Please see my review comments. --Pi zero (talk) 19:58, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Explosions kill four in Nebraska town in United States

Quick review of the article reveals there have been major updates to this story (arrest made). Please update the article and resubmit. Thanks, SVTCobra 16:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Notability

Wikinews does not have and does not seek to have a notability guideline similar to that of Wikipedia. Local news is encouraged, bearing in mind it should be written for an international audience. Mundane things that might get published in ultra-local newspapers are discouraged, however. See Wikinews:Content guide for more information. Cheers, SVTCobra 22:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm aware of that. I didn't intend that as a negative thing, just as an observation that the articles here trend towards local, non-controversial news. And also that there aren't many articles in total, because of an unfortunate lack of contributors.--Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Abandoned articles

When tagging articles as {{abandoned}} it is best (though not strictly required) to include the current date as the first parameter. To do this easily use {{subst:aband}} which will automatically add the date. Cheers, SVTCobra 04:18, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Congrats!

Minus the Hobo Tourism article that had been sitting for awhile, congrats on getting the first Wikinews article in more than a month published! Johnson524 (talk) 01:30, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! It was just pure luck, actually, RockerballAustralia happened to be finalizing his own article, and he reviewed it right then. But it definitely felt good to see some sign of life on the Main Page. Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 03:49, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Ha, I just realized I wrote "some sign of life" in reference to an obituary! Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 03:50, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

If you're looking for any Ukraine-related stuff to write about, there's Russia banning oil sales to the G7 nations or the US attempting to muster the legislative support for Ukraine aid. Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 04:11, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I definitely hope to write more for Wikinews in the future 🙂 Johnson524 (talk) 15:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

thank you for your patience.

im sorry, i don't waste your time but thank you for helping out. Cheers!!! DallasWinsten61 (talk) 03:22, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not a waste of time at all. Helping articles get published is a good way for me to lend a hand. Any and all contributors are welcome here, we definitely have a shortage of writers and reviewers. Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately English WikiNews does have less activity then usual. DallasWinsten61 (talk) 03:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes. I'm glad that you chose Wikinews; out of all the Wikimedia projects, we have the least activity, but we're also perhaps the friendliest and most reader-dedicated wiki (as evidenced by the fact that the Wikinews ArbCom could fade out of existence with no significant repercussions for the community; there weren't any disputes anymore). Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 03:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I just hope English Wikinews doesn't retire!!!!! DallasWinsten61 (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Opinion please on Hazard article, I hope it don't go Stale!!! DallasWinsten61 (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I just made a couple edits to put things in order. The style of Wikinews articles was confusing to me until I read WN:PYRAMID, which is basically: put the information in order from most important to least important, so how long Eden Hazard played for Belgium would be before the team's Instagram post about him.

It's good that you're aware of the staleness issue, but it's not a problem right now, since articles go stale after 5-7 days.

Unfortunately, I am not a reviewer, so I can't move the article toward publication. Hopefully one of them is online soon. Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 04:08, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, thank you. DallasWinsten61 (talk) 04:44, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Volcano on Italy's island of Stromboli erupts in massive explosion

Hi, this article isn't abandoned and I've submitted it for review. Are there any other changes that need to be made before it is ready for review? If so, please let me know. Samuel Kirwin (talk) 18:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, technically it isn't abandoned because you haven't abandoned it, but that's usually the tag we use to indicate staleness: unfortunately, the article has gone stale as the 5-7 day freshness window has passed and no reviewers (I'm not one of them) have reviewed it.

I hope this unfortunate occurrence (sadly, not uncommon on today's English Wikinews) does not deter you from continuing to write here; I can see you have potential.

If you have the time, you can try to find new material to refresh the story, if there are new developments, or attempt original reporting, although that's a more difficult route; an interview might be the only type of original reporting it would be practical to conduct (assuming you don't live in Sicily, in which case you could take it much further and investigate the conditions of the area presently). Heavy Water (talk) 18:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I understand. Thanks for clearing that up. Samuel Kirwin (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

How is it my fault that the USA Wins World Cup article is stale?

I finished it in about a day, and everything from here is that there are no reviewers. Is it fair to delete a perfectly good article just because no reviewer exists to actually review it? RPI2026F1 (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not your fault at all and no, it's not fair at all. I've had the same thing happen to 6 of my articles-most of my articles.

It's crushing when it happens, but the reviewers would not approve a stale article.

Consider this: what would you think as a reader if you went to the English Wikinews' Facebook or Twitter feed right now and saw a new post about the US being eliminated from the World Cup, which started, "On December 4..." It would be laughable. The same thing if it was advertised as news on the Main Page (although our Main Page still lists articles from September, but at least they were published then). Heavy Water (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Honestly I feel like unless there's a guarantee that articles will be reviewed by 7 days, the option to make new articles should be disabled. RPI2026F1 (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Re: recent edits

The article Taliban bar Afghan women from higher education follows British and Commonwealth spelling customs, which you reverted with edits eg 'fulfil', 'co-ordinated'. Per the style guide: "On Wikinews we generally follow either the spelling patterns of the subject of the article (British English for articles about the UK, American English for those about the US, etc), or those of the article's first author." Just as I, a reviewer, do not 'correct' American spelling norms, I ask Commonwealth norms be respected in kind. JJLiu112 (talk) 23:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, the link to Asia was made as it is an internal category for people wanting to read more Wikinews articles about Asia—a Wikipedia link to South Asia would be for people wanting to read more about what South Asia is. Generally, we apply the former more liberally than the latter. Thanks nonetheless for the spirit of your edits, they are greatly appreciated. JJLiu112 (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@JJLiu112: Thank you, I was not aware of that about "fulfil" and "co-ordinated". Heavy Water (talk) 00:03, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

"

Hi > Said Haines: "Essentially, we just had to put together a case to demonstrate that there was a larger playing group out there, that's of a higher quality player, that we could essentially tap into. https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Brothers_Sunshine_Coast_to_join_A_grade_rugby_union_competition_on_Australia%27s_Sunshine_Coast

Missing the end of quotation marks ("). Nigirii (talk) 15:37, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

@Nigirii: Thank you for pointing this out, it is a common grammatical error. It appears another user has now fixed it. Heavy Water (talk) 16:21, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

It has been fixed, but it doesn't show up in the "view". Nigirii (talk) 17:05, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Correct. Because of how the page is set up, it is only displayed in the "Pending changes" tab between "Read" and "Edit". This change will be merged into the "Read" view when a reviewer approves it. Heavy Water (talk) 17:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Reviewer

I nominated you for Reviewer status. You could certainly use the permission. Cheers, SVTCobra 12:03, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: Thank you greatly. I did not think I was qualified for that, but I am much honored to accept on the nomination page and see where that goes. I'm supposed to partake in an "apprentice" review of an article with an experienced reviewer, right? Heavy Water (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

A longer tenure is probably normal, but you are doing really well and we need all hands on deck to keep this ship afloat. SVTCobra 00:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Heavy Water (talk) 00:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's take a quick breath: Have you been made an Accredited Reporter here yet?--Bddpaux (talk) 17:07, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Bddpaux: No, which was part of why I didn't expect this at all...I applied for accreditation, as I had already planned to, yesterday. I completely understand your reservations. Heavy Water (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Congrats, Again!

Hello Heavy Water, I hope you're doing well. While I haven't edited on Wikinews for a little while now, I hope you know that all of your work here has been very appreciated, by me, and all of those who view the site. It's awesome to see so much life on the main page again when I log onto the site, and I'm honored to link the articles that get passed on their appropriate Wikipedia pages. Keep up the outstanding work and congratulations on your nomination for reviewer status. Cheers! Johnson524 (talk) 04:30, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Johnson524: Thank you! It is my honor to be able to contribute to this wiki, which can now once again call itself Wikinews, not Wikirecenthistory. If you feel like writing, now would certainly be a good time, as the reviewers have returned, and, in fact, we have the opposite problem: not enough writers! So any contributions you could make would be very welcome. The reviewership nomination kind of took me by surprise, but I like it. Cheers, Heavy Water (talk) 04:56, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Wow, that was a speedy response! If the reviewers have returned, why not, I would love to write again. Thank you for the encouragement 🙂 Johnson524 (talk) 05:17, 8 January 2023 (UTC) (Wikirecenthistory lol)

Sandbox

For the record, if you don't want to clutter up your user page, you can create a 'sandbox page' eg User:pi zero/sandbox. Up to you. JJLiu112 (talk) 09:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@JJLiu112: Yes, I know, thanks. I was using my sandbox for something else. Heavy Water (talk) 13:53, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Award

Well, this is HORRIBLY past due!

		The Order of the Humble Pencil For completing 5 edits.
		Great work! Keep it up!--Bddpaux (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Bddpaux: Thanks! I already took the liberty of awarding myself the Wikinews Intern trophy. Heavy Water (talk) 16:00, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Which is completely appropriate. This one is (unofficially, of course) the first award that someone might give to you here.--Bddpaux (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Award 2

...as is this!

		The Order of the Modest Pencil For getting your first article published!
		Excellent work!--Bddpaux (talk) 16:01, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Barnstar

A long overdue token of gratitude from I'm sure the whole community to recognise and commend a most diligent and voracious contributor with plenty of room to grow. JJLiu112 (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I'm very glad to have earned it! Heavy Water (talk) 19:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Re Kyiv mayor comment

Hi Heavy Water

In the article, it says 'Ukraine alleges this tactic is part of an offensive against civilians.' If you have time and familiarity with sources, could you please change the wording to clarify which person or authority is making this allegation, please (cf. WN:Attribution).

Also, are there second sources on ".We have a deficit of energy around 30% right now in Kyiv"? Without such additional sources, the article reads like telling the important quote of one person, not substantiated by independent evidence.

Regards, -- Gryllida (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Gryllida: 1. The Euronews source which I used to reference that says "Kyiv" (i.e., the Ukrainian government). I can change it to "The Ukrainian government alleges..." if you'd like. 2. This says there was a deficit from around Sunday. I wouldn't have considered this newsworthy were it not for the fact that he has information from local experts (he's only relaying that). Heavy Water (talk) 01:00, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Heavy Water, for the note. Perhaps 'Euronews reported, Kyiv alleged this tactic was part of an offensive against civilians'? Would suggest to add the Yahoo News link in list of references -- it looks sort of like what I am looking for -- and mention relevant information from it in the article. If there's any more information available about the deficit, it'd be cool to include also.

Note I have communicated with people from Russia and one of them mentioned recently that (according to what the Russian TV says perhaps?) the electricity is available by time (i.e., for N hours per day every day) and the claim that the civilians 'lack' electricity may be misleading, i.e. 'Millions of Ukrainians now reportedly lack electricity'. It would be great to see whether there are reliable sources supporting it, and/or specifying which cities or towns lack electricity, whether or not there is this N hours per day thing or not, etc. Gryllida (talk) 02:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I will bring the Yahoo article in then (hopefully via the Kyiv Independent directly). Russian state media would certainly misrepresent the situation. CNN was who said they lack electricity, though they didn't go much further. I'd say CNN is reliable enough to not require attribution. I don't think the attribution to Euronews is necessary either, I've seen much advice by Wikinewsies not to clutter the article with mentions of other outlets, much like how we don't use inline referencing, and no one is claiming Ukraine didn't say this. Heavy Water (talk) 02:27, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

new article

Check out my new article. It would be better if you check the article so that I can submit it for review. DRC-B5 (talk) 06:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Srry

My English not so gd... Pecerasop747 (talk) 22:45, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Heavy water: Pecerasop747 (talk) 22:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I got the message, thanks. I replied on Talk:Oakland California shooting. Heavy Water (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Accredited reporter

For becoming an accredited reporter, what conditions do I need to satisfy? DRC-B5 (talk) 16:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@DRC-B5: Uhh, I'll assume this is a hypothetical and you're not seeking accreditation right now. Wikinews:Accreditation policy should outline the expectations, but it doesn't make clear enough two things:

1. Accreditation is to aid in original reporting, but you can certainly do original reporting without accreditation; accreditation only helps you confirm to third parties you are a journalist, which can be crucial in some places.

2. Accreditation requires Wikinewsies to place a lot of trust in the reporter; with accreditation, Wikinews is placing its reputation in their hands. Wikinews:Never assume requires us to rely on individuals' earned reputations-that is, if we think we can trust them after knowing them a while. I'm not saying other Wikinewsies doesn't trust you, or anyone else; I'm saying Wikinewsies prefer to have known someone for a while before accrediting them. (This sounds like something Pi zero would say, and I never knew him, though I feel like I did).

So, I would encourage you to keep writing, become familiar with the accreditation policy, and hopefully get some articles published. From what I've seen, you learn quickly. Heavy Water (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Hmm this takes a lot of time for reaching such position. Thanks for your explanation. I just want to get familiar with this project. DRC-B5 (talk) 17:40, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@DRC-B5: No problem. A lot of time, not necessarily. I only really joined Wikinews in August, and I requested accreditation this month, receiving a fair amount of support. Familiarity with the project and its people is certainly the best way to earn trust. Heavy Water (talk) 17:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Review

Hi, Heavy Water. I know your Hipkins-NZ article was next in line and only a few days from getting stale, but I thought you and JJLiu112 were working it out and I remain confident it will get published. Madelaine is already familiar with the article and has probably read the sources quite a bit already. I am trying to optimize our output. The choice of British English in the recent article and whether to defer to author (and source) choice of spelling is interesting. I left it "defence" because to a reader it would be more consistent with all the references to "honour" (not "honor"). I didn't want to mix it up (for a lack of a better term). Cheers, SVTCobra 04:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: Yes, I certainly understand your reasoning on the review queue, we do have a problem where her (excellent) articles aren't reviewed. Even if I wouldn't do so myself, I get the spelling thing, and have resolved the talk section. Heavy Water (talk) 05:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

More to the point of why I gave you an early nomination for reviewer: If you look at my edit history, or rather the edit history of the article, it took me hours. Perhaps longer than it took to write (I have no way of knowing). Reviews are tedious and require you to look at each fact and quote in the article. I think you are a good candidate because you find typos in old articles as well as policy pages and guidelines. We need to be pedantic. While the world might find it an insult we should take pride in it. SVTCobra 07:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: Well, it's easy to focus on spelling when the rest of the article looks just fine. I do try to be accurate and detailed to avoid mistakes or even a lack of clarity. Thank you, Heavy Water (talk) 15:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

UK government nature plan: all English to live within 15 minutes of "green space or water"

Sorry about the rapid-fire messages about WN:Fair use, but it is a potential liability for the WMF. Either way, I think there are plenty of alternatives. And never let GRP get under your skin. Cheers, SVTCobra 03:32, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: No, it is certainly necessary, copyright violations are serious. I requested deletion because I wasn't able to reduce the resolution and I, in fact, found a different but suitable image. And his message was only a minor nuisance, but thanks. Heavy Water (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is serious. I was in rapid-fire mode due to writing my own article at the same time. And I can't remember the exact image you you used (and tired to reduce), but was it from this? If so it was already not timely if you look at their caption. It is from November (or rather earlier because that's when the Standard got it). It's just a stock photo. Commons:Category:Woolacombe has several images of farmland. If Woolacombe is not pertinent, I am sure you can find a photo on Commons for British farmland. Cheers, SVTCobra 04:00, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The image was also used there yes (that's one of my sources). I did feel it was more relevant, but I'm now using this one. Heavy Water (talk) 04:08, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Report

Can you report ‎1L0VEFAKENEWS69420 to admins noticeboard? DRC-B5 (talk) 17:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

It wouldn't be much help at the moment; there are no admins online. When SVTCobra logs in next, they'll check Recent changes and block the user. Heavy Water (talk) 17:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Ah! I see him much active in Wikinews. DRC-B5 (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Help

HW, can you please contribute my article in my absence as I will be inactive for this month due to my exam pressure, as I mentioned earlier. I thought I would go for deletion of them as this will be stale after few days. But SVT prevented me saying someone will contribute in my absence. You please do this as per your capacity. DRC-B5 (talk) 06:14, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I might be able to. However, I see you're working on a new article. I would caution you against abandoning articles so fast for new ones; it will likely result in none being published, as opposed to taking one article and focusing on it to get it published. And I think you should submit French unions strike against President Macron’s pension reform plan for review. Heavy Water (talk) 14:43, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

But the issues pointed out by Liu is not yet fixed. Did you fixed that issue? DRC-B5 (talk) 14:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I thought you did, and I copyedited it, which was one of the things she advised. Heavy Water (talk) 14:49, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, I will keep your advice and request for deleting the new page I made. I will be active for 1 hr. So I will check again and submit for review. DRC-B5 (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I made the corrections. Sorry for that I was too busy that I forgot what I did. DRC-B5 (talk) 15:04, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Misuse of user pages

Hi. I have not said or assumed that this user is going to be disruptive. Just in many projects this deliberate non-productive crosswiki founding of user pages is considered to be the misuse of user pages which they are not designed for. But it is up to you and your local rules.

Cheers, -- Jan.Kamenicek (talk) 14:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: Sorry, by disruptive I had in mind the vandalism that got them blocked on the English Wikipedia. I should have clarified that. But, Wikinews:Never assume also forbids us from assuming the user page creation is going to be their only edit. If it's a disruptive editor's user page, we would delete it. But I don't think any of these things apply here. Thanks, Heavy Water (talk) 14:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

US downs Chinese balloon article

Hey, got some time for checking this. I feel some of the portions needs to be fixed. DRC-B5 (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Re: UK government nature plan: all English to live within 15 minutes' walk of "green space or water"

"On Tuesday, the United Kingdom government released the Environmental Improvement Plan, pledging every English person will have "a green space or water" 15 minutes or less' walk from their home."

...by what year? Gryllida (talk) 04:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Gryllida: Something I wanted to know myself. Unfortunately, it's not in the sources or the government's press release (where the sources got that information from). It is a five-year plan, so that's a possible time frame, but no specific date was attached to this goal. Heavy Water (talk) 05:12, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

IHARTFAKENEWS

That guy is too sucking my patience. DRC-B5 (talk) 17:20, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Yep. They're one of the long-term abusers around here. Heavy Water (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I reported to IRC. DRC-B5 (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations

I bestowed Reviewer rights to you. I wish some more admins had voted, but it has been over a month. You only got one 'weak oppose' so I think most people trust you. I don't know if you ever met up with @Gryllida in IRC as was talked about. However, WWC2023 has only increased the bottleneck of reviews and we need more active reviewers. Congrats, SVTCobra 19:39, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

SVTCobra, I cannot thank you enough for placing your trust in me. I will try to live up to that. As for IRC: yeah, the extreme time difference makes that hard. I was in once when Gryllida was in the channel, but I think they were inactive then, only still logged in. Thank you, Heavy Water (talk) 20:00, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

And I intend to sight all those ancient pending changes in Category:Review now. Heavy Water (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, now you can sight all those typos you keep finding in recent articles and fixes to main page leads and various other pages in the depths of Wikinews. The typos you find in the archives will still be on me ;) ... but if you keep at it, you'll surely become an admin, too. Cheers, SVTCobra 05:50, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Re: P&G

As I happen to remember some of the circumstances under which this wording was changed (and did not like how it came out), I should point out **why** it came to be. A series of community members, but one in particular, would revert changes to 'their' article by manually reverting edits one at a time. In this way they might technically avoid reverting 3+ times, as they were not reverting the exact same changes 3+ times. Thus the attempt to state one cannot revert within a single article more than three times in a day. - Amgine | t 04:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Amgine: Hmm, OK, that makes sense. I self-reverted. Heavy Water (talk) 04:29, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi

I thought of deciding to create another article. I will make it ready but I guess you will be offline for now. Please check my article when it is ready. And congrats for reviewer DRC-B5 (talk) 05:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Hey, just check the article India sends new rocket, deploying 3 satellites into the orbit, when you are free, probably. DRC-B5 (talk) 17:42, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Categories

While archiving some articles, I notice you tend to keep all the categories on one line separated by a space. While this does not appear to be problem technologically, it is commonplace to have them each on a separate line. This is the way I have seen categories organized across all wiki-projects. I don't know of any policy on this, but if you could, please follow convention if it is all the same to you. Cheers, SVTCobra 17:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: I do prefer them on separate lines (as with the elements of a source) and thought I always did this (here, for example). I guess that was an oversight, I'll try to pay more attention to it next time. Heavy Water (talk) 17:25, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

OK, cool. But look at this diff which I just made. Cheers, SVTCobra 17:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I saw it, yes. I'll keep them on separate lines next time. Heavy Water (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Re Glasshouse in to Tier 1 women's cricket final on Australia's Sunshine Coast

Thank you for the review. :-) Regards, -- Gryllida (talk) 01:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

It was my pleasure to do so! Heavy Water (talk) 03:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Re: Pakistan reverses block on Wikimedia projects, including Wikipedia

Thanks for editing, appreciated. This is an interesting story. Gryllida (talk) 01:18, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi

I have withdraw review on the Murmu transfer article. I add a new article about Bangladesh president election topic, you can review on it. M:DRC (talk) 14:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'll do so when I have time. Heavy Water (talk) 14:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Feedback

I want to know about my feedback so that I can improve it from the future. Thanks M:DRC (talk) 17:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Do you mean on {{speedy}} tags? I was only saying it seemed more like encyclopedic content or editorializing than spam/advertising. Heavy Water (talk) 17:48, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Nah, about my contributions in Wikinews. How am I making my articles? Etc. M:DRC (talk) 18:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I see. I think my comments here and Chaetodipus' here are the most relevant. This essay by the late Pi zero might be helpful. Heavy Water (talk) 19:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@DRC-B5: Another thing would be the reviewer's edits and their edit summaries. I find looking at the "diffs", like this one, of those edits, can be helpful for picking up smaller things not mentioned in the review comments. You can easily see what was changed and why, avoiding the same problems on your future articles. Heavy Water (talk) 05:16, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok then, I will do my best M:DRC (talk) 05:37, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Your edit to SG

Please do not re-open this argument. There are times to choose a single preferred term for clarity in a reference guide. While using the term 'stop' may be preferred for a portion of English speakers, there are other terms used in other contexts and a guide cannot support every possible option consistently. Allowing more than one has, in the past, resulted in wheel wars, and this was the compromise text for the Style Guide.

There is also guidance on how policies are created and updated. Generally speaking, a substantive change to an established policy should be discussed on-wiki with active project participants. If there is consensus for a change, make sure to ad a link to the discusion's revisions so others can see when/where/how the policy was changed. (Yes, there is a policy to Ignore All Rules, which PiZero absolutely loathed, so if you strongly feel you should be able to arbitrarily alter the policies of the project at will, but then you must not argue if others do the same to your changes. Amgine | t 18:26, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Obviously one is not supposed to substantively change policy without consensus. I made my edit to clarify that period is the preferred term (as one who prefers "period" I would have no interest in changing it).

For context for anyone else:

This American term is used to describe full-stops (the British/International term). --> This is the American counterpart of the Commonwealth term full-stop.

I thought this unnecessarily elevating full-stop, in fact. I see now some meaning of "this is what SG uses" was lost, but that repeats the "Conventions" section anyway. Heavy Water (talk) 18:38, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Amgine. Heavy Water (talk) 18:38, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Bulgarian police article

Hi HW, got some time for checking this. I don't like articles getting stale. M:DRC (talk) 03:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

@DRC-B5:{{lead article 2}}

--Heavy Water (talk) 04:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks bro, and have a good day to you. M:DRC (talk) 04:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

No problem! Heavy Water (talk) 04:48, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Should this have been hard-linked to the article you are talking about instead of Lead Article 2? SVTCobra 03:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

accredition

Hi, today I applied for accreditation request. Since I would like to continue in this wiki, I must also do some more stuff (including OR) and increase my positions. OR is the main problem for me. I am not an adult yet. So, I will be restricted to move in outside my residence. M:DRC (talk) 16:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

@DRC-B5: First, you are under no obligation to do OR or request accreditation, though you're more than welcome to. Also, you don't need accreditation to do OR, it just makes it easier. And I think people usually do OR around where they live. Heavy Water (talk) 16:40, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Make lead &c.

Per the big warning that appears on the Wikinews:Make lead page, "Please do not use time sensitive words like 'today' or 'yesterday'", and I'd suggest skipping 'Sunday', 'Monday' etc. considering how quickly that can get dated too. And maybe this is a personal thing, but I think a bit of surreptitious edits are OK just so, for example, it doesn't read "The United Kingdom Home Office Thursday is to begin" or including acronyms "African Union (AU)" that aren't really necessary if it's just in a headline. JJLiu112 (talk) 03:06, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Regarding "today and yesterday" (I went looking and found this diff), that must've been an oversight. I do try to keep the day-of-the-week dates in leads up-to-date. I wasn't sure what to do with the "The United Kingdom Home Office...", since changing the tenses didn't feel right because that was not covered by the sources as reviewed or the article... Heavy Water (talk) 06:23, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Interwiki links

There's no need to add manual interwiki links to Wikinews in other languages. It is being handled through Wikidata. Pi zero opposed removing old ones (perhaps, initially fearing it would stop working), but even he did not favor adding new ones. Cheers, SVTCobra 01:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh. I saw, apparently, old ones at Category:Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (I used Wikidata only for previous categories) and I thought en.wn had an aversion to migrating interwikis to Wikidata. Thank you for clarifying. Heavy Water (talk) 01:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

One of your deletion requests

You requested User:Get ready to snack on my poopie be deleted. While I don't think there is a lick of truth in the user's self-description, I don't think it is vandalism. I don't like the username anymore than I liked your first username, but again, I don't think it violates policy. Basically, it just discourages "offensive" name without defining them. Cheers, SVTCobra 03:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I should have said "speedy nominations" instead of "deletion requests" as the process differs. But I think you understand. SVTCobra 03:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, I thought it was likely the LTA also known as Cannot hold in my poop much longer (t · c · b), 50.127.78.142 (t · c · b), and the compromiser of The Irate Communist. So preemptively tagging it. But I understand what you mean. Heavy Water (talk) 04:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Until they edit outside of their own user page, I don't think any action is needed. I mean, there can be actionable content on the user page, but we don't have that either. SVTCobra 04:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

OK. Heavy Water (talk) 04:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't have checkuser privileges nor would I suggest requesting such services at this point. SVTCobra 04:24, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Dashes

I know it is confusing and it took me a while to get conventions down pat, myself. But there are three basic types:

1. dash (also called a hyphen) which is the shortest one and typically for hyphenating words, but used all over the place, sometimes incorrectly
2. en-dash (a bit longer) which is good for separating scores of sports or votes (as in the recently published article)
3. em-dash (even longer) which is good for interjections but with a space before and after

The reason the single dash is found incorrectly in so many places (including reputable sources) is that the other two cannot be found on a standard keyboard. We, thankfully, have the dropdown box for special characters. Further making it hard, this is probably not spelled out in our style guide, but can probably be found in resources such as The Chicago Manual of Style which is a massive tome about proper writing. I think some of the older editions might be available for free online (and they don't change much from edition-to-edition). Anyway, most of our style guide is right in line with Chicago. It is American-English centered but in my experience, British-English publications are not much different. Lastly, sometimes you will find in sources a double dash (--) which is the easy way to make an em-dash with a standard keyboard. A single dash is usually used in place of an en-dash. And there is no way I am going to go through our archives to find all the ways people have used dashes in the past. Cheers, SVTCobra 22:13, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

OK, thank you. Heavy Water (talk) 22:14, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Another resource is the AP Stylebook which I wouldn't fault anyone for following. I'm sorry if I come off as anal-retentive. Cheers, SVTCobra 22:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

No, no, it's fine. I'll make note of that. Heavy Water (talk) 22:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Typical workflow for interviews/requests for comment/etc

I saw a sub-page of yours (at least I thought it was yours) where you kept notes for an interview you wanted to do. I can't find it now.

For the Willow project article I am working on, I have requested comment regarding the funding of the EIS. I doubt seriously I'll receive a response. But just in case — do you have recommendations for how to work through that? I've read through WN:OR. But I don't see where it discusses the finer mechanics of officially tracking email/correspondence, etc.

I see from your 'Crimea is a red line' article that I am to forward emails to Scoop. I assume that is Scoop@wn-reporters.org, correct?

Sorry if this should be obvious to me or if I've missed reading a document with instructions!

15:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC) Michael.C.Wright (talk) 15:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@Michael.C.Wright: Was it my sandbox? I was keeping the questions there (diff) but replaced them with some infrastructure-related links I need to remember. Yeah, we've kinda just expected people to know how to do that stuff, which is both unfair and risky in terms of how people present Wikinews. This is compounded by the fact that email correspondence is nearly always only shared with scoop. I seem to recall one of Pi zero's goals was to set up a page to walk people through OR and make it more approachable, but that was one of the things he was never able to do. And I'm far from knowledgeable about the actual practice of OR-I've read a lot of it, but that's only my second OR. Anyways Pi recommended 'Fascinating' and 'provocative' research examines genetic elements of bipolar, schizophrenia because all correspondence is documented on the talk page there, and I tend to follow that format for my emails. A very crucial thing is how you describe your connection with Wikinews. Even accredited reporters must describe themselves as independent authors/independent researchers/freelance journalists, not as "Wikinews reporters". You may say you are hoping to publish in Wikinews, at which point I often name-drop Wikipedia for legitimacy. And you may be surprised at how responsive people can be to that. --Heavy Water (talk) 17:31, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

And after you're done, forward everything to scoop [at] wn-reporters [dot] org, yeah. But don't send files to scoop, since those are heavy and the entire wn-reporters system is paid for by Wikinewsies (which is good, so the WMF can exercise no editorial control; send them to an active accredited reporter, who will upload them to a private file-hosting service. Heavy Water (talk) 18:30, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

That definitely helps. Thank you! Michael.C.Wright (talk) 20:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I do not know how easy it is to get a hold of William S. Saturn, but he has tremendous experience in contacting people for interviews. SVTCobra 16:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah, yes. I recall his last edit was December 2021, just responding to an award on his talk page, and he hasn't edited much at enwiki, either. Heavy Water (talk) 16:31, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

He usually gets active during election cycles. SVTCobra 16:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

requested???

the ip didn't seem suspicious, just saying though I could be wrong, thanks. Hypda (talk) 23:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Hypda: It was an empty request; we get a lot of those. I do not judge suspicion, I am not a checkuser or anyone with administrative authority. Heavy Water (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, thank you. Hypda (talk) 00:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Dates

BTW, you don't have to manually update the date in {{date}}. EZPR will automatically change it to the current UTC date at the time you select to give a passing review. Just a minor time saver. Cheers, SVTCobra 02:35, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh, OK. Thanks. Heavy Water (talk) 02:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

for your help on the categories. 64.39.81.54 (talk) 13:38, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Question

I've got a quick question that I'm not sure who else can answer. The New South Wales state election was conceded last month, however the last seat has only now been called (see: [1]) Does that mean an article can't be written on it because it's been over 7 days? Or is the last seat called the end date of the election? Thanks. Commemorative1 (talk) 06:16, 8 April 2023 (UTC) Commemorative1

You would have to make the focal event the battle for the final seat and how close the count was. You could then discuss the results of the rest of the NSW elections deeper in the article as background information. Try to follow the principles prescribed in WN:PYRAMID. Cheers, SVTCobra 07:06, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Your accreditation

Are you still on IRC with Gryllida and/or others? I really don't know how to close your request. It's not a permission within the Wikimedia software. I tried to ping them today. Cheers, SVTCobra 23:23, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm in the channel now; last time Gryllida was signed in to the channel, but inactive, now they're not in the channel at all. Revisiting some old requests, I think the person is just added to WN:CV and {{Accredited reporter}} placed on their user page. Heavy Water (talk) 23:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I mean, I can do that part. But not the whole stuff with an e-mail account and business(?) card. Nor can I do the part where I am supposed to verify your identity. How can I confirm you are "N Johns" or that this is an acceptable pseudonym? I don't know these things because I never pursued accreditation myself. SVTCobra 23:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I see. Is Acagastya responsive to emails in your experience? Heavy Water (talk) 23:48, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I have never e-mailed Acagastya to my recollection, but I would imagine yes. Acagastya set up the current mail system (and may be paying for it). SVTCobra 23:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: My point with "structures" was that, to my understanding, the sources noted five "buildings" (besides houses, etc.) had been hit, but it was not stated these were all apartment buildings, though Reuters refers to plural apartment buildings. Heavy Water (talk) 00:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Upon re-reading the ABC source, the math doesn't quite add up, either. Although, it is not out of the realm of possibilty that a missile the size of an S-300 could impact more than one home or building. We are still in the 24-hour window, so I will do a little digging to see if we can clarify. But I'd rather drop the "homes" than the "apartment buildings" because of the overwhelming photo evidence. SVTCobra 00:39, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

After reading an AP source, I am prepared to just change it all to "a residential area". ABC seems to be the only one mentioning a school, as well. SVTCobra 00:51, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────┘
Gryllida was online and edited on Wikinews tonight. Did you hook up? --SVTCobra 00:59, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Gryllida said they cannot access wn-reporters either. Heavy Water (talk) 02:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Question

Who has the saying of "Would a school teacher in Manila care about this? What about a waiter in Sydney or a young mother in Hong Kong?" This doesn't quite feel right. I do not believe in the sentiment that every article should necessarily be of interest to every person on earth. In fact, I am quite certain when Jimbo Wales created Wikinews, he envisioned thousands if not millions of Wikinewsies running around doing all kinds of news reporting, from global to hyper-local. And, of course, there'd be so many of us that we could all keep a check on each other (without our formally adopted reviewing process).

While that dream hasn't panned out. I guess, what I am saying is I don't like your justification. Citing WN:CARCRASH would be OK, but who the fuck knows what a school teacher in Manila cares about? Maybe she doesn't care about the war in Ukraine or the US presidential elections. It's a ridiculous notion to use this as a standard of newsworthiness. Anyway, I'd like to know where you found this. SVTCobra 02:28, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

It is Bddpaux's, from their user page. I intended to use it as an illustration to help the author understand what I was saying in reference to the newsworthiness policy. Heavy Water (talk) 02:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh, that's rich! Does he believe a young mother in Hong Kong cares about Wikinews attends 2021 Texas Haunters Convention? The irony is thick. Wow! SVTCobra 02:37, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I can strike out the mention of it, if you think it's misleading. Heavy Water (talk) 02:44, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

It's your review. You should do what you feel is right. I had been following that article a bit, but after the photo and notes, it started to feel like any of tens of thousands of daily traffic accidents. I guess, I didn't realize a tipper truck was not a tanker truck where the spill would have been significant. But, again, do what you want, the contributor can always resubmit for review. I, on the other hand, may talk to Paul about that statement on his user page. But not tonight. Cheers, SVTCobra 02:55, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Eh, I struck it. I realized I had not linked to policy anyway. --Heavy Water (talk) 03:02, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Funny that you mentioned the Haunters Convention; the 2019 article was mentioned by Brian Keegan in this MIT paper, as evidence of how peer review and archiving, along with Wikipedia, had caused Wikinews to "fail". I don't see how publishing local news places the blame for any supposed failure of Wikinews on peer review and archiving, but that's what he said. Heavy Water (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I had never seen that paper before. Thanks. It was a pretty interesting read. SVTCobra 18:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

For the sake of chatter, let me weigh in here just a bit. I read about 15% of that article (will finish later). Funnily enough, I don't see evidence he interviewed 10 people who came for 15 minutes and left, asking why they didn't stick around. Brian McNeil and Pi Zero were BRILLIANT at crafting responses pertaining to what WN is and what WN is not. Reminder: WN is not Wikipedia, and it NEVER WAS. Oh, he is right: We were VERY MUCH limping along in 2019 -- for certain. I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER liked this idea of an evolving print (digital or otherwise)article -- they drive me nuts! An article is written, checked and published. IMO, unless there is a gross error in it, it stands alone, on that pillar for all eternity. These squishy articles, where 9 versions of it appear over a 72-hour period are weird and cringe! I have modified my user page, because my 'school teacher in Manila' thing etc. etc. was getting horribly misconstrued. We can ABSOLUTELY report on local news here... and we SHOULD VERY MUCH be doing so. My comments were meant to convey that our stuff should have a global APPEAL built into it.

To my point: People all around the world are interested in show business and entertainment. People all around the world are interested in business, economics and trade. Many people all over the world have attended and like to attend trade shows, amusement parks, fringe theater events, etc. In the Western hemisphere alone, there are about 2200 for-profit haunted attractions open in September and October (that charge fees). Right around the Halloween holiday itself, there are around roughly 4,000 charity organizations that operate various types of walk through or drive through haunted attractions in North America alone. Roughly 100 countries celebrate Halloween. Haunted attractions utilize lighting, mechanical props, makeup, design/painting techniques, architecture etc. You would be hard pressed to find a major amusement park on most continents that doesn't feature some weirdness around Halloween. That event featured classes, vendors, displays etc. See where I am going here? My article featured 3 photos, each with captions. Yes, my photos/writing couldn't had a broader scope/delivery (should've taken better notes). But the focus/scope of that article holds appeals to MANY different people. I wrote my little piece of advise on my user page(give me a few inches, I am drawing from memory) sparked by some article where the person wrote MANY words about a budget constraint in a tiny UK village and how council members wanted to spend money replacing the awnings for assorted government building entrances. [Can't remember if that got published, or not.] It was basically an article about a long conversation that never really went anywhere.

Lest we forget a few things: We are volunteers. We don't generate revenue to keep the lights on around here. We need more Reviewers....true all the way. Always has been true.

We get the news and we report the news... not perfectly, not flawlessly and maybe not as robustly as some of us would like to. But: we are engaged in electronic citizen journalism. Nothing more. Nothing less. Accusing us of failing is like telling a bumble bee that it has failed to evolve into a shark. It never intended to be a shark. 87% of these discussions ALWAYS come back to: Wikinews is not Wikipedia. There are LOADS of local topics out there with broad appeal, and I never intended to convey otherwise. We just have to try our best to speak to a broad swathe of readers... that's all I ever meant.--Bddpaux (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Your AR

It's been a couple of weeks now. Were you ever able to hook up with Acagastya on IRC or e-mail? SVTCobra 00:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

No...I just emailed Acagastya to ask about it. Heavy Water (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain you may be the very first person (at least in a decade) around here to receive accreditation out-of-order. So, you've been a Reviewer for a bit now, and I just made you an Accredited Reporter. Go forth and do good deeds!--Bddpaux (talk) 20:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Heavy Water (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, but did you get an email address or a card? And I still don't understand what the "out-of-order" thing is. I thought it was already talked out at the request page. SVTCobra 04:35, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

As far as I can see, no user rights were changed (nor should they be because accredited is not a wiki-permission). The important bits you need from the people who administer the e-mail. As far as I can see, Paul didn't do anything except close the request and say congratulations. SVTCobra 04:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

How busy are you today?

I think US National Park Service announces parts of Yosemite National Park to close for days as flooding forecast needs to be published today. Ideally, I will expand it, if you can review shortly after. However, if you are busy, I could just review it in its current state. Cheers, SVTCobra 15:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm about to start reviewing that one. Should be quick. Heavy Water (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I will add to it after you are done, whether it passes or not (24h window). The KTVU video does render, but Archive Bot changed the link. But it is useless anyway, which is why I asked if it was redundant on the talk page. Cheers, SVTCobra 16:13, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I didn't notice the bot had interfered. It appears redundant anyway. Heavy Water (talk) 16:37, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

López Obrador announces that he will reinforce the southern border of Mexico after the end of Title 42 in the US.

Hello, could you spell check my article on the expulsion of illegal immigrants from the United States?Jusaset (talk) 06:36, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

What do you think is still out of date, I'm sorry I told you that my native language is not English. Could you help me in that part, give it a linguistic and journalistic review?--Jusaset (talk) 17:07, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I replied on the article's talk page. Heavy Water (talk) 18:20, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Accreditation

SVTCobra pointed out the I'd missed a couple of beats in terms of your accreditation. Let me knock off the cobwebs a bit. We'll need your real name etc. to fully make you 'real', and will set you up on the Accredited reporters list, etc. I haven't taken such an action in quite some time, so I am a bit rusty on pressing the correct buttons. Bddpaux (talk) 14:37, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, this is how my information would look in the credential verification template. Only thing I don't know is the value to enter in "Accredited Reporter No."

Johns, N (Wikinews user Heavy Water)

Location: Dallas, Texas, United States
Areas of coverage include: Politics and conflicts, science and technology, environment, obituaries, disasters and accidents, and crime and law.
Contact information: njohns2018 [at] outlook [dot] com
More information: Wikinews user page | Contact reporter via Talk Page | Browse recent activity | Email this user
Accredited Reporter No.: ?
Received accreditation: April 27, 2023

Accreditation Expires: Unknown

Heavy Water (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Renaming/moving

It will probably be better if you spend a little more time on what you want the final name to be, instead of leaving multiple redirects for deletion. I am thinking about the current G7 article. This will be extra important for the next 10 days or so. Cheers. SVTCobra 00:55, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry. I seem to see a problem with every headline after moving it (and I should rename that again, because the supply chain scheme may be enacted before the end of the year). Heavy Water (talk) 02:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

United States ends Title 42

Why don't they decide and delete it if there is no way to save it, even this article has a Wikipedia page.--Jusaset (talk) 23:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

If you want it to be deleted, you can use {{delete|author}} on the article. Otherwise it will be deleted in a few days if it isn't updated. Heavy Water (talk) 00:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

observo que en tu artículo en Wikinoticias en español, recibiste mucha ayuda https://es.wikinews.org/wiki/Una_jueza_de_Par%C3%ADs_absuelve_a_Airbus_y_Air_France_de_homicidio_involuntario_en_accidente_de_2009_que_mat%C3%B3_a_228_personas que te impide mejorar mi articulo de United States ends Title 42. --Jusaset (talk) 02:08, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I note that in your wikinews article in Spanish you received a lot of help that prevents you from helping me in this original article of mine

https://es.wikinews.org/wiki/Una_jueza_de_Par%C3%ADs_absuelve_a_Airbus_y_Air_France_de_homicidio_involuntario_en_accidente_de_2009_que_mat%C3%B3_a_228_personas --Jusaset (talk) 02:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)