Wikinews:Water cooler/policy/Archive/16

From Wikinews, the free news source you can write!

Jump to: navigation, search

Contents

[edit] Usage of Cc-by-nd

This template is used here for photojournalism. However, -nd works are not free (even if they are easier to reuse as images than GFDL-licensed works). This template was created back in February and was objected to quite strongly by Eloquence then, who quoted mailing list posts related to this, but it survived through general apathy. (Relevant discussion is at Wikinews talk:Image use policy and Template talk:Cc-by-nd-2.5). This template is used for ~120 images, all of which would be more useful, for other language WN articles for example, under a cc-by-sa license on Commons. I think the template {{Cc-by-nd-2.5}} should be deprecated to prevent further non-free uploads under it (removing it from MediaWiki:Licenses) and the uploaders of works uploaded under this license should be contacted to try and get them to freely relicense the work. I don't think the template itself should be deleted just yet, but I think it should be removed eventually; along with works that the uploaders refuse to freely license.--Nilfanion 16:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, if there is no objection I will remove it (or try so, since I haven't edited MediaWiki yet).--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree 100%. I think that there should be the opotion to upload with that license, (Otherwise makes the part on GoL images make no sense), but it should not be ecouraged (sp?). Bawolff :-)(-: 07:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on current affairs

Many news media even those being considered as unbiased has got some sociopolitical journalism. They got publicists who comment current affairs and express their opinion. I think Wikinews should also have a column with wikicommentators' articles signed with their name and with disclaimer that everything written there is a author's personal point of view.

As far as I know, such articles are not allowed on Wikinews at the moment. Why? Fafek2 (talk page) 21:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

We do have such a page. See: Wikinews talk:Commentary pages on news events. —FellowWikiNews (W) 22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikinews may be reluctant to introduce comments because its built-in transparency would record for all the world to see responces that could, and probably would, run the full gamut from brilliant to mundane to outright ugly and hurtful.
There is also involved in this the introduction of an interactive dynamic, that in its worst case scenario, could mean comment pages would descend into a chat forum which is something that Wikinews is not about. Personally, I am not too fearful of that happening because comments can be monitored for their relevance to the news story associated with it. -Edbrown05 22:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I remember very well, how a couple years ago, it was very hard to press the 'save' button. A comment would be an easier 'save' button for a user to hit. I'm fairly certain the community would welcome comments and new users who express an interest in news. -Edbrown05 23:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think he is refering to editorials. We allow that in user space, if you are a well known user and they don't offend anyone, but we don't advertise them. user:Bawolff
Comments could and would be a work-around to the freeze on editorial content here. The community cannot support an editorial page because agreeing on the content is problematic. Answer, delegate relegate. -Edbrown05 23:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Us-centrism, lack of coverage, etc

I know this is one of the main problems of Wikinews, Wikianything, the whole internet - that is 'US-centrism'. On the main page currently almost every other story is US-based or related. And some are outright blatant such as "Western New York prepares for ice storm" and "Car and Train collide in Buffalo". Shouldn't the main page of Wikinews be about world news with a section dedicated to US news? I know the argument for this happening is that most contributors are from the US and most westerners (including me) are interested in stories from the US (hollywood celebrities etc.) but you could atleast try to even out this disparity. IMHO currently this is worst then BBC 'World' News (and thats saying something).

Sincerely, Ransu, Finland

Ok, I can see that this is not a unique problem - at main page news for Oceania you have 60 stories listen - ALL of which concern or relate to either Australia or New Zealand - most countries belonging to 'Oceania' have no current news on them - or no news at all ever in fact.

Yes that is a problem, but are general policy is you write if your intreasted. therefor we have a crap load of Australi, New Zealand, and US stories (Actually us is quite new to that club). Our weak point is Africa. Most countries now have at least one artricle about them. Anyways in short the main page is all news, if theres only USA stories written that day, its all going to be USA, if there's only Australia stories its going to be Australa. If we have a well balanced day, the main page will be balanced. We currently don't have enough stories to pick and choose what's on the main page. the portals are the same. Portal:Oceania is all stories from oceania, with no attempt made to balance them out. (if you want about some specific place, you can always go to its portal, e.g. Portal:Finland). same for topics: Portal:Science and technology has just the most recent articles for that subject, its not balanced to include some computing stuff, some space, etc. Bawolff :-)(-: 04:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
P.S. you may be intreasted in reading previous conversations on this subject on pages like wikinews:Article distribution and Wikinews:Country of the Week (no longer maintained project that tried to deal with this problem. note they are old, so they arn't up to date). Bawolff :-)(-: 04:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ransu ! I'm French we are then both European to be sad about the fact that there are far more wikinews entries about New Zealand in January 2007 than about our two countries combined.

The main problem when writing on wikis in another language is not about translating the words : if one is wrong, the wiki community will soon replace it... No ! it is to express one's ideas... when unsuccessful nobody is able to read in your mind and it finished in the deletion vote process such as Wikinews:Deletion_requests#January_15

The only post here about France in January is an anecdotic one on automobiles torched in France for New Years and I was naive to pretend myself to make the right choice covering at least one event from the previous week about my own native country

  • the Convention nominating which candidate will be the official rightist Conservative to take the place of w:Jacques Chirac in the 2007 presidential election.
  • Wikipedia chairman speaking on the main French TV network
"Wikipédia, l'encyclopédie gratuite des internautes". TF1, last week

[edit] press releases on Wikinews:Proposed deletion

I think it should be made policy to list press releases automatically for three days on proposed deletion, instead of adding them manually (see {{Press Release}}). Furthermore PROD should be made policy.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for Proposed deletion as an official policy

  1. Support.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  • neutral - who cares if its an official policy, We've been deleting stuff under it ever since MessedRocker declared it. I don't see the need for it to be an official policy. Bawolff :-)(-: 22:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  1. Oppose per Bawolff Brian | (Talk) | New Zealand Portal 22:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose per Bawolff: No need for policy Thunderhead - (talk) Congrajulations to Kat! 21:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. Policy does not become policy through voting but through acceptance. This policy has been used unopposed for months, to all intents and purposes it is policy. --+Deprifry+ 22:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add Press Releases to Proposed Deletion

  1. Support.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. three days, assuming no one is editing it or trying to neutralfy it it fine. Bawolff :-)(-: 22:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Yep I agree Brian | (Talk) | New Zealand Portal 22:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  5. like Bawolff says. — Doldrums(talk) 05:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April fool's stuff

Its coming...

The Wikipedia April fool's project wanted a point person for coordinating Wikinews' effort for that day & i've volunteered. Wikinews needs to decide what it wants to do on the big day, and some prior discussion and consensus-building would help ward off the kind of thing we've sometimes seen in prior years.  — Doldrums(talk) 03:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you suggest? I liked the incredible stories-idea.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 20:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
see also a whole bunch of emails on wikinews-l starting with http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikinews-l/2007-January/000607.html (theres about 20 there). Bawolff ☺☻ 21:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
true but incredible stories are the "safest" option, in that we stay well within policies. finding one which happened sufficiently recently in the past to be news is the difficult part. culling some wacky news off a big wire service isn't enough, in my opinion - people see that kind of stuff everyday.  — Doldrums(talk) 05:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It would be very hard to do in my opinon. (It would be very cool though). Maybe just one featured article. Bawolff ☺☻ 07:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
yeah, one such lead article is good enough. i don't see us filling the days stories with such stuff, (unless the ETs decide to help us out). if we can get such an original story, that wld be awesome.  — Doldrums(talk)

Well, I created a little something already, User:Thunderhead/aprilfirst is one that I drafted. Thunderhead (unlogged) talk

but that was already used for last year. Bawolff ☺☻ 04:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
But last year's article said something was gonna happen by April 1, 2007. It'd be a suppliment. --71.80.53.227 08:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC) Thunderhead unlogged
If this happened recently, an interview with this person would be cool. Bawolff ☺☻ 04:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. I will try to think up an interesting story... —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 23:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to get a hold of Russian court documents? Elsewise, no contact info comes up in preliminary searches. -- Zanimum 16:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
It has to be this good IMHO. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I love that video. Bawolff ☺☻ 20:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Clearly the main page should be moved into the alleged project namespace or alleged portal name space, as the Main namespace is for the alleged articles !!! (that was a bad attempt at a joke, if you didn't get it). `Bawolff ☺☻ 00:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
LOl. Yes, your joke was funny. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 22:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Aha! I've got it! On Template:Start an article, we'll change it to search for articles instead of taking you to the "Create an article" screen. Since there are so many people with "Start an Article" boxes on thier userspace, it won't disrupt the flow of Wikinews!  Thunderhead  ►  15:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User photo's

We have tons of them. most of them are not licensed freely, if at all (some of them even claim they are fair use which is a total load of ...). I personally think that they shouldn't be on wikinews whatsoever, so I propose:

Note I havn't asked anyone in commons yet, so they might not like this. in which case, I geuss we'd just stick with status-quo, but I think it'd be better at commons. Bawolff ☺☻ 04:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I can imagine that most people just want to use them and keep them copyrighted... couldn't it be some kind of exception, like the logos?--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 19:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I geuss we could, but I think thats going a bit to much away from the main goals of wikinews. we don't want to become an image host. Bawolff ☺☻ 20:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
One could argue that user pages are useful to the project and that community atmosphere adds to the goals of the project... however I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here because I for one never felt the need to put a picture of myself on my userpage... maybe we should hear from people like Munchkinguy and Paul Robinson.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 00:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure someone who has a user picture will see this soon, there's lots out there (Chiacomo, TUFKAAP also have images I know, as well as quite a few other people). this also went out on the mailing list. Bawolff ☺☻ 04:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Its okay at commons [1] Bawolff ☺☻ 04:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any reason why our policies should differ from wikipedia's, but more importantly I don't see why any policy is needed since image spam happens rarely. Image host concerns can easily be handled as follows: Say User:Bob uploads tons of photos of his vacation. if User:Bob doesn't contribute, just speedy delete the images as spam. If User:Bob does contrbute, and he doesn't want to take them down, nominate his images for deletion at WN:DR. WN:DR should remain the final word on deletion debates. Nyarlathotep 02:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do I always get lost on liscensing issues... who gives a crap unless there is money involved. -Edbrown05 10:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
This fear mongering, Wikinews is gonna be sued, Wikimedia is gonna be sued... for what? Somebody or some news organization sticking their face up in public? -Edbrown05 10:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Well its not wikinews is going to be sued (as if a personal photo of a user appears here, the user probably wants it here), its just that they technically sort of all fall under speedy delete at this moment in time (not that its being enforced though). Instead of developing a policy as to what's appropriate for personal uploads, why not just let people use a site that already has a policy in place. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I 100,000,000,000,000% agree with the photos going on Commons. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 22:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I still disagree with moving photos to commons. Yes, maybe experenced users should move their photos, just like experenced users should register their names on all wikimedia sites in any langauge they speak (matters much more). But you shouldn't harass the n00bs. And harassing experenced users will induce recent ex-n00bs to harass the n00bs. Nyarlathotep 23:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Most user photos cannot be uploaded to the Commons because the majority of them are taken by someone else. That means that the user does not own the copyright and can't put it under a free license. --Munchkinguy 15:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that the subject of the photo, not the taker of the photo (only for photo's where the person is not famous and its not a public crowd), its the subjects copyright. Bawolff ☺☻ 22:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recommendation to Delete Downsizing Title Policy

I think WikiNews should be moreprofessional and discourage downsizing, and make the policy to up size titles. I know about the old poll. Maybe I will start another. Discuss. Club2007 00:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

My belief on the matter, is that they're both equally as good, as long as we just stick to one, and keep it. We have 13,679 articles downstyle, and well we could change them, its just easier to keep it the same. Also quite a lot of other news sites use Downstyle, and if anyone really really hates it, they can add
h1.firstHeading {text-transform: Capitalize;}
to their special:mypage/monobook.css (note, that will capitilize small words like a to for and etc, as well).You need to be logged in for this to work. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
IMO, using upstyle headlines looks ugly. The code that Bawolff showed totally fixes the problem. If you don't like downstyle use the code, if you do, don't use the code. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 22:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I rarely see it in other languages then English, so it looks really ugly to most foreign readers.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Press Release

have made some large changes to this template, tightening text slightly, emphasising the neutrality issue more than copyright issue. pls review and revert if need be.  — Doldrums(talk) 15:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the changes. Bawolff ☺☻ 21:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
No problem with the changes. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 22:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] have issued correction

to Putin, Gorbachov question charging of teacher with software piracy. have also changed the title and body text to correct the errors in this 2-day old article. pls review. thanks are due to an unregistered user who first brought it to our notice.  — Doldrums(talk) 16:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

and one more. no policy issues in this one though. — Doldrums(talk) 12:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] discussion pages cannot be altered

any post to a discussion should not be subject to revision, nor deletion.

That's unlikely to happen. Bawolff ☺☻ 22:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Considering admins and honest users will sometimes need to use the <strike> tag to strike unhonest votes from socks. --Thunderhead - (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

why strike a comment, and who is to say what is "unhonest", and why is this "unlikely to happen"?

I proablly wasn't very clear, sorry. Its unlikely to happen, as we are sort of against actually commenting on stories. Discussion pages are for discussing the creation and writing of an article. Well we get very mad at people who modify other peoples comments, we generally don't take any technical methods to stop them (besides blocking them). The striking dishonest votes part is if we're having a vote on something, and someone decides to make a great number of new accounts to skew the vote (has happened on WN:A) we strike out the votes that are not legitament users (we have a couple methods of determining this). P.S., please end your posts with four tidles (~~~~). Thanks, and happy editing. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok. So, what happens if someone types in an offensive word that may hurt some people? I Believe offensive comments should be removed regardless of "discussion pages cannot be altered". —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 21:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Before I was refering to talk namespace. For opinion stuff, I believe same rules as editorials in userspace apply. If someone gets mad about it, into the garbage bin it goes. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I’ve noticed some stories such as Al-Qaeda threaten to kill Prince Harrythat all the sources are relying on the same information. I feel that this adds credibility to what is in fact a single source. Also I feel that it should be noted that certain published newspapers lack the credibility that we should strive towards so I’m not sure if we should use them as an only source without adding a comment about their reliability. I apologise if this is duplication but I have also brought up this topic on the relevant discussion page --Xbehave 14:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Your right. The same source reprinted by ten different people is still a single source. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
In a case like this (Al Qaeda) it will always boil down to single source. It will be a website posting or a phone call to a journalist. Al Qaeda won't be hosting conference calls or holding press conferences. That said, I think there is a good arguement to be made that such info can be disregarded in its entirety. --SVTCobra 00:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I think he meant secondary sources. (People reporting on said event). If you have the actually website posting the claim, that's all you need imho. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
In a case like this, if you have the Al-quaeda website that claims they're going to kill Prince Harry then you're doing Original Reporting (And likely can read Arabic).
In other cases, you need to watch for things like two different newspaper sites quoting selected bits from the same AP or Reuters report. That's technically a single source too. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] oversight role

a discussion on giving more Wikinews users Oversight ability is underway at the admin alert page.  — Doldrums(talk) 14:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

confirmation of oversight and checkuser permissions for more users is underway. have your say about it.  — Doldrums(talk) 07:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] logo images in headers on portals

What is the policy (copyright legalness) for creating header images with a logo superimposed on it. (ala Image:Scottish Portal Banner.jpg) I think it should be okay as we already allow logos by themselves on portals (like portal:Google), and its really just a logo over top another image. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should sports stories appear on the main headline list?

My feeling is a strong "no". By their very nature, sports results strike me as entertainment, not "news". Seeing the healing list half-full of such stories doesn't seem right to me; perhaps we should, like traditional news sources, have a separate sports section. Thoughts? --81.170.16.193 04:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Currently we don't have many stories on a single day, so it might well be that since we recently had some new sports writers, the news can be dominated by sport. Just like it can be dominated by news from New Zealand, if our reporters writing about NZ are very active and the rest is not. It's just a matter of time; hopefully one day WikiNews will be big enough to secure enough stories each day, and once we cover both the most relevant international stories and other stories, we can sort these stories to appear on the main page or not. But for now, everything is treated equally.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inactive accredited reporters, part II

This previous discussion didn't really finalise into a new policy either... So I propose to add the following to the accreditation policy (we should then probably ask the Board or something to approve, no?):

That accredited users who become inactive (no edits) for longer then 6 months be removed from the accreditation page moved to an inactive reporters list.

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Votes

I would say 6mo, if you edit after that you can be added back on. Seems already long to me.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • sure for inactive list. Bawolff ☺☻ 22:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree  Thunderhead  ►  23:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree, rather them removed entirely than to an "inactive" list though. Do we want to highlight that we give people accreditation only for them to leave? Dan100 (Talk) 20:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed - incidentally, how do you separate accredited reporters from normal reports? Thor Malmjursson 15:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
We have a procedure for accrediting users who have built trust within the community. The process results in you getting a press pass from wikinews which - if used wisely - can get you special access at events. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed, but perhaps if and when they return, they can fast track re-accreditation? -- Zanimum 16:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree. An inactive list isn't the only thing we should do, we should have a template to go on the user page that highlights the reporter is no longer active on the project. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

  • I don't know if their is general consensus to have the accreditation set for a limited amount of time, for example to repeat the accreditation request every year. We do have some control over the process since serious misconduct can result in removal of accreditation.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • not clear if "removed from the accreditation page" means inactive badge-wearers get shoved off to an "inactive" list or get badges torn off. the former's ok. i'm not convinced we shld do the latter - suspect that such a move would need to be looked at, if not approved, by the powers above. also, at the time the policy was created, it appears accreditation was meant to be permanent. i think those listed shld be informed about this discussion before any major changes. so my suggestion would be to separate out the inactive ones into a new list below the active one. –Doldrums(talk) 12:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I personally support a reconfirm process for thoose who are inactive. MrM left the site. I feel that thoose who leave the site shouldn't be accredited. However Mindspillage is fairly inactive, but is very active in wikimedia, and I still feel that she should remain accredited. if after say a year of not being active or so, we have a reconfirm. if >50% say yes then they keep there accreditation. if less, they lose it. Bawolff ☺☻ 23:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accredited reporters - part 3!!!!!!!

I don't think that someone should recieve accredidation if they are not going to an event that needs varification. As Doldrums said on Wikinews_talk:Credential_verification#Accreditation: "note that it is possible to do original reporting even without accreditation". Perhaps we should change our policy to reflect this also. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 22:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps so, but I don't know if the Board would agree to such a change.  Thunderhead  ►  22:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
/aside... In this section the signatures occupy more space than the comments, I believe that is frowned upon. So I'll waffle and change the balance ☺
Our accreditation is based on honesty and trust, the basis for the ongoing discussion is people who we do not know - therefor cannot ascertain the honesty or trustworthiness of - asking for accreditation. Our trust in fellow contributors that we do accredit is not based in their "cold" contributions to the wiki, as those from commons would ask us to judge them. It is based on our interactions with them on this site with the goal of producing news.
I'd rather not restrict our requirements for accreditation too much. I'd rather see commons implement an accredited photographer status. What prerequisites they apply would be up to them, but it would be a highly coveted status. If you got Commons photographer accreditation and Wikinews accreditation then you'd be able to say you were "An independent photojournalist publishing through the Wikimedia foundation". --Brian McNeil / talk 23:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • No. I was just saying that since not every event needs varification we should only give accreditation to users that are going to an event that needs varification. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 23:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Normally a third sequel is release after the 2nd one, so please also engage in the above discussion.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 10:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikinews has 5 avenues of usership: an anonymous IP, a registered user, and accredited user, and administrator, and an arbitor. Thank goodness it is daylight so I can go to sleep. -Edbrown05 11:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that accreditation should have a prerequisite that you be attending an event that requires it. All the IT events I've attended ask for a company/organisation name which frequently goes on the badge you're issued with. Even where a press pass or accreditation is not required I do not believe you should be able to fill in Wikinews for the organisation unless you've gone through the accreditation process. --Brian McNeil / talk 11:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How to propose a policy change?

I would like to ask how I would propose a change in policy on Wikinews. There is currently a deletion request in on the Single source template because of the fact that it is being misused and according to the nominator, "It is not mandated by a policy."

I would like to propose a policy change concerning the use of sources and application of such templates so that we have proper rules and understanding of how templates such as this are applied to working articles. How do I do this, and more to the point, where in the name of $Deity do I start??? Thor Malmjursson 15:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, for this one you probably start on WN:DR, the deletion requests page. It was an edit of mine that prompted nomination of the template for deletion. The article did not have a breaking template on it, so I don't think I was in the wrong.
Personally I think there should be less exceptions for single-sourced stuff because the mainstream media might decide to run a test case for copyright violation. I believe the template is instrumental in ensuring we have a "best effort" to avoid that happening. Dan100's suggestion that I should've gone looking for a second source to tack onto the article isn't enough, and our contributors need to know that. The story would still be based on the first source, the only purpose the second would serve is to verify the facts. While that's good for Wikinews, our articles have to be a synthesis from multiple sources. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. The template is very useful in many ways. At least two or more sources should also be added to an article. I also think we should have a new policy proposing not to use two sources with exactly the same story. Disscussion: Wikinews:Water_cooler#Sources. —FellowWikiNews (W) (sign here!) 21:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought it used to be in the style guide that we had to have <= 2 sources. Anyways, I'm all for adding a line for that into WN:SG#Citing_your_references and Wikinews:Cite sources. to that extant. Bawolff ☺☻

[edit] Comments section

I'm not sure our article comments is working well, I think we'd be better off mirroring the BBC's style for their Have Your Say section. I think we should request a new namespace, User Comments:, and have a link to it in the navigation section and a User Comments:Main_Page that people update with photos and quotes from articles and invite user comments. Then we need to develop a robust policy for what gets deleted from comment pages.

Take a look at the BBC's HYS, particularly the comments on the detention of the UK sailors and marines. Most recommended comments are to turn Iran into a glass-coated parking lot. If we can get that sort of feedback then we'd be doing okay. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

That sounds tempting. The current concept is dead. -- Zanimum 19:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Still no reviews?

I presume there's still no reviews allowed on Wikinews? I established contact with Buena Vista (Disney) in regards to red carpets, and now they're offering up DVD screeners.

What if I kept the articles mainly informational, and quoted myself, myself being a former Family Entertainment critic for Suite101? I could also quote critics with opposing reviews. -- Zanimum 17:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

All I can suggest is you tell them that reviews may be problematic on our site, due to editorial guidelines, and try one or two to see how you can work within policy. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minimum length of articles and breaking news

Is there a minimum length on published articles? I couldn't find in guidelines anywhere other than it should be more than just a link (When you create an article there are some tips including "Don't post articles containing only a link to a story on an external news site and no story text. Such pages are quickly deleted." BTW I can't find these tips anywhere else on the site...).

I think for breaking news that it is more important to get an article published on Wikinews and then come back and improve it (or for others to improve) than wait until an article is perfect before publishing. Reason: I want to see wider and faster news coverage on Wikinews :-)

(see discussion on recent article I wrote Talk:US_Supreme_Court_rules_against_EPA_on_global_warming for background)

Comments? Michael614 03:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

a rough rule of thumb is that a full article has 3 paragraphs. one way to publish short briefs that u are not planning to expand further is in Wikinews Shorts. if there is significant breaking news whose article is likely to be expanded, do go ahead and publish a short (but useful!) summary as breaking news. –Doldrums(talk) 06:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. Is there any objection to adding this guideline about length plus the tips you see when you create an article to the style guide at Wikinews:Style_guide#Basic_news_writing? - Michael614 12:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead, but keep your additions brief. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Added to Wikinews:Style_guide#Article_length Michael614 01:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CC-BY 3

Creative Commons has released version 3.0 of the CC-BY license.  Thunderhead  ►  21:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Finally! Can we make any article created after a week from now or whatever 3.0? -- Zanimum 15:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you know what's involved? Can we relicense everything or do we have to label old content as under a different license? --Brian McNeil / talk 15:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know. The license says that we can make anything after we implimented it under CC-BY 3, or we can just relicense everything after September 25, 2005 to CC-BY 3.0. Do we have to run this by the Foundation first?  Thunderhead  ►  19:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, we did not add a "and later versions"-clause to MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning so migrating won't be trivial. Short of getting consent from everyone who edited Wikinews since September '05, I don't think relicensing our content is possible. As for new content, I'm not sure switching is worth the trouble since the changes don't seem to affect us all that much. --+Deprifry+ 14:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
We already had a discussion about this on the mailing list[2]. The gist of it, was that it was not wroth the effort. Bawolff ☺☻ 20:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
CC-by-3.0 has, for example, not even been approved on Commons.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Who said anything about migrating? Leave the stuff before X as cc-sa-2.5, and make everything published on X+1 cc-sa-3.0, once Commons gives the license thumbs up. -- Zanimum 19:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving non-published articles

I recently placed the articles Snow falls in New Mexico and Series of earthquakes hit Taiwan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Indonesia on WN:DR and the result was keep. Both stories were unpublished and as such I thought they were worthy for deletion.

It was always my understanding that only published articles which were archived. Is this correct or am I mistaken? - Cartman02au (Talk)(AU Portal) 11:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, only published articles should be archived. These should probably have been listed as abandoned, rather than put on DR. --Brian McNeil / talk 11:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I forgot all about my old friend abandoned, OMG I've been away far too long - Cartman02au (Talk)(AU Portal) 11:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] public speeches and NPOV

can people weigh in on this (see also this). –Doldrums(talk) 13:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I have put an NPOV tag on the first, the second is too old - well written, but Doldrum's comments on the talk are fair.
The BBC has the policy of balancing their reporting to give parties a proportional amount of coverage over - say - an election campaign. This is monitored carefully to maintain the BBC impartiality. We however have an obligation to balance our coverage within a single story, per NPOV. The Sarkozy article is presenting his political rhetoric against the opposition, it reads like a rock concert review making the performer out to be amazing. The US Defense Secretary story is also very one-sided. It uncritically presents what he said to a receptive audience - just like the Sarkozy article. Journalists are supposed to be suspicious, dig a little deeper, and not report without looking at the spin critically. --Brian McNeil / talk 14:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'm not a Sarko fan, and I just wrote what he said, but I think his speech did everything but making him look better.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use images

I wonder if someone can help me with the policy on fair use images. I have only used images from the Commons so far, but I am interested in using some photos from a Canadian government website. These photos can be found here: Fisheries and Oceans Canada - Photos of trapped ships. They are offered up to the media for use, and have been used by many outlets in their stories. The photos are great and I would like to add one or two to this story: "Sealing ships trapped in ice off coast of Newfoundland". Wikinews, April 20, 2007. Would this be allowed? Jcart1534 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I am no expert, but if Canadian gov't stuff is like US, then it is PD. I'd upload it to Commons and not here, though. You can then direct link the image. --SVTCobra 03:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
the material on the website does not appear to be in the public domain[3]. it's free for use, with attribution, for non-commercial purposes. but since Wikinews content is free for commercial use also, this is not enough. instead, u can upload it as Fair use media under the publicity claim. –Doldrums(talk) 04:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It's technically copyright Queen Elizabeth II, "Crown copyright". While you should tag it far use, also note that it's crown material in the summary. -- Zanimum 16:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikinews:Deleted article notice

pls review Wikinews:Admin_action_alerts#Channel Seven loses control of audio. –Doldrums(talk) 09:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

We would still remove the copyvios from the site, no? What about copyvio titles? Could you explain a bit more what you want to discuss here?--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 12:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I, personally, like the deleted article notice better than the correction template for copyvio articles. The correction template is only for articles that wrongly stated something. The deleted article notice is for copyvio articles to redirect to. —FellowWikiNewsie 22:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with that.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I expect other media to issue retractions when they published something they shouldn't have. Shouldn't we do the same? In this case, an explanation that it was an unfortunate incident of copy-vio and that we promise to be more diligent in the future. There might even need to more specifics, like how it happened and who was disciplined. --SVTCobra 00:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
copyvio is the only scenario i can think of where we'll delete an article. where we've got a story badly wrong and need to retract, we'll maintain a copy of the story, publish a fresh correction article, and place a prominent notice on the original story noting the retraction. we've done this once (that i can remember) - "Piano Man" is not British actor, search down to three leads. where the story is mostly right, but some details are incorrect, we just add a correction to the original story, as in Swedish nuclear reactors shut down over safety concerns.
the plan for copyvios that get published is to delete the article, so the infringing text is not available in history either. recreate the page with a note that the previously published article has been deleted. we can note the reason and/or issue an apology. i'm not fixed on the current wording, feel free to make changes. using a template (similar to {{correction}}) gives us the flexibility to tailor the wording to suit individual cases. and the template can always link to the talk page, where lots of details can be placed, if necessary.
i personally think copyvio titles are not a big problem, especially short, factual titles. and there's always the option of renaming post-publication if we have good reasons to believe there's going to be a problem with one.
this is a good time to think about whether we shld formalize guidelines for corrections and what those guidelines ought to be. –Doldrums(talk) 03:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm always pro what others might call instruction creep (), so I think that might be a good idea to streamline a process. I think everyone agrees that we should delete copyvios and issue correction for the rest, that's already standard practice.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 07:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Credits on images

Apparently the Wikipedia Image use policy says "All photo credit should be in a summary on the image description page."... I'd like Wikinews to mention explicitly on our image use policy that it should be given on the image itself.

I propose this after I begged a Flickr photographer to give up his pictures for Protests in Turkey over Presidential candidate, which he did, under a cc-by-sa-2.0 licence, glad to have is name on Wikipedia. I hope he likes the Wikinews article too. I notice that image credits on the article page has become standard practice here on Wikinews and I think it should.

You might say that it is un-wiki: no it's not, since it doesn't violate the definition of free cultural works. Moreover it's a powerful motivator for people to give up right on their work. Thirdly, it's only fair, since hiding it away on some image description page nobody reads doesn't make it very likely that reusers will in turn attribute the image. And finally, if another news source were to use it, we'd want them to do it too, since they don't have image pages. It's standard practice in newspapers and textbooks alike and I think we should explicitly make it our standard.

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 07:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with this. I think it was Brianmc who pointed it out on an image I used, and I have tried to credit photos ever since (where names are available). I think it is good policy. Jcart1534 11:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I concur, sensible proposal. --+Deprifry+ 11:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree...unless the photo is Public Domain like NASA or something...DragonFire1024 11:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I think we should credit photos wherever possible, even ones that have been released into the public domain. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why we should give credits when attribution is not required. For example, I would never add a credit to the Ubuntu screenshot in Dell to offer Ubuntu Linux on some computers. I mean, do I need to add my own name to the screenshot I uploaded for Microsoft Silverlight released into first test phase? Let's leave credits for when they are needed, such as cc-by-X licences and such, or maybe when Public Domain institutions request a credit out of courtesy, but no more than that.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree...if its not required, then we should not have to bother with it. Credit is given where its deserved, or required. DragonFire1024 15:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi as an active contributor on en.wiki and commons (where vast majority of these free images are acutely located). Elsewhere on wikimedia projects credit is never give on the instances of image uses. All credit is available at arms length of the image. Clicking the image in question not only provides credit information but also meta data even including stuff like shutter speeds.
Legally speaking I do not believe it is necessary to credit the author of every instance of usage - of course just like practicaly everything with free licenses this was never challenged at a court. However for the sake of "being nice" such credit can be given (but should NEVER be required).
I would also recommend against linking to the authors website/wikipedia userpage/flickr page and etc directly, instead link to the image description page which would link to the source. There are many reasons for this. Linking to the authors personal page on every instance of image usage may fall under personal promotion and even spamming. This kind of linkage for instance would affect google ratings.
I also feel that if you (plural) are going to require credit to every single image usage, you should also give credit to every single edit since both GFDL and CC would require it. GFDL and CC-by-sa are basically very similar when it comes to requiring credit.
-- Cat chi? 16:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more resolutions

Foundation:Resolution:Access to nonpublic data will affect stewards, users with checkuser and oversight rights, OTRS volunteers, and all developers with access to any electronic records which contains nonpublic information (such as the IP addresses of readers or contributors). 60 day clock started ticking 11 April 2007. –Doldrums(talk) 18:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice that we here from the Foundation a lot, they're clearly working... I think it looks like a good policy.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 07:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

user:Uncle G added two extra sources to Abby Cadabby debuts at Sesame Place today as a walkaround character. While these sources help prove the information in the article is true, (a.) these weren't sources that I used, I only used the press release and mailing list, and (b.) these articles themselves are only just parroting the press release as well.

Should we add false sources to articles? I can see doing this if someone wrote an article with no sources listed, and we want to salvage the article, but that's not the case. I've seen this done multiple other times, by multiple other editors. -- Zanimum 16:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

only those sources used in writing the article shld be listed. one possible reason to add other sources is if editors think there is a real need to corroborate the information (eg. OR from an anon or new editor). –Doldrums(talk) 16:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] deleting published articles

eg. Georgia Aquarium beluga whale euthanized. see [4].

published articles shld not be "disappeared" by deleting. if there are flaws in the article, they shld be fixed using a correction notice or a new article. Wikinews is supposed to maintain an archive of its articles.

if people are concerned that "low-quality" articles such as one-liners are getting published, then the time to catch them and delete is ideally before they are published or on the day they are published, not months later.

incidentally, deletion requests need to be archived when the articles are deleted or kept. –Doldrums(talk) 10:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

One line sentences are not articles, let alone news. May as well be the headline two times. I agree normally, but in the case of the 3...no. That's ridiculous. DragonFire1024 10:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
i agree with you that this shld never have been published. but once it has been published for several days, we have no choice but to keep it. i suspect this is why Steven, who archived it, did so too. keep in mind that once articles are published, they will be linked to rom outside Wikinews. When readers follow such links down here, they get no notice that the (deleted) article existed or what it said. that is unacceptable for an archive, especially for an online news source like ours.
the time to enforce standards is prior to or just following publication, not months later. and the way to enforce standards is to correct or, if required, publish a new article. deleting old articles is not the way to do this. –Doldrums(talk) 11:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree in cases of long and more dynamic articles. but these are not articles. They are barely sentences. Anyone who linked to any of those outside of wikinews has issues becuase they can clearly see that they do not provide details to any event whatsoever. DragonFire1024 11:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rumours

What to do with rumours? Even though most may be untrue, or hard to check, there might be something there. So how can we follow up on rumours in a news worthy way? Could there be like a question page, where you can ask who knows about such and such? Who can write or link me to information about such and such?

Quite recently I was in Dresden, where I heard from an African Refugee, that The Ethiopian army had bombed a neighbourhood in Somalia, creating a firestorm simular to the one in Dreden during the WW II. The refugee spoke convincingly about many deaths, that have not made the international news, because it was not favourable for the West, that supports the Ethiopian Army's presence in Somalia. On this link we find news from Reuters on the fighting: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=87&art_id=nw20070425090227353C252475 This link offers already much more Somalian victims, still between the lines of the news: http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/articles_w16/idw2007.04.20.08.02.40.html#hdng0 and on http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/articles_w18/idw2007.05.02.14.23.57.html#hdng2 the number of civilian victims is growing into the hundreds. So there may not have been an firestorm (as far as I found out), but the Ethiopian army is not just restoring order in a peaceful way.

So also the question is, how the small news that tips the big news could get more attention? Right before the US attack on Iraq in a Dutch news paper (Volkskrant) a small report said that both the CIA and the FBI could find no clue whatsoever about connections between Saddam Hoessein and Al Qaida. In a much bigger report in the same paper, with pictures, Bush claimed in a press conference there was a connection. When Bush attacked the smaller news that both CIA and FBI had found no such evidence disappeared from the news and from the reasoning of many (European) politicians. It stayed under water until the critism against the invasion began to grow and seek ways to counter the reasoning of the Bush policy. If the Wiki news site wants to be of interest, they should seek ways to help those who’s news is underrepresented. One more edition telling the same things, based upon similar resources, seems to me, less important or interesting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Floridee (talk • contribs) 23:54, 12 May 2007

[edit] Abusive usage of WIKINEWS

Hi there, I'm writing about comercial entities using Wikinews as a promotional media for their products/services. Today was the second time that I noticed an article concerning "Sesame Place" on the main page. There is nothing newsworthy about either "article", of course. This is probably only the beginning of the "run" on Wikinews. I am not involved with any Wiki project, not do I have to time to be, but I would find it terribly sad if businesses abused these collective efforts and, doing so, dilluted their quality. Best of luck to all of you who participate in this endeavour, hope to join you one day! Djaighan 125.225.4.215 17:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi,
Thanks for your concern. It seems to me that it's actually quite difficult to promote something here on Wikinews, given the low numbers of promotional articles that get published and the high amounts of frustration it is known to cause in those who try (not always justified). The article you refer to is of course very local, but until we get more stories, every article is listed on the main page, even if it is only important to a specific or local group. The article was written by an established Wikinewsie who has no affiliation with Sesame Place, but is rather a big fan of Sesame street and covers news related to it.
--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 17:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-writing news is OK?

At the bottom of some news stories like USG to Cut 500 Jobs Due to Housing Slump, it is stated,"© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed."

However, at Wikinews we always re-write and publish news stories. Is it legal? Would I be able to start a news Web-site tomorrow, call it Best News wherein I just re-write other news stories?--Blivit 21:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)